University of Warwick suspends 11 students over rape jokes Watch

Poll: Opinion on Warwick Rape Joke Students
Free speech and you should be allowed to have any opinion. (80)
17.66%
Just a joke and taking too seriously. (77)
17%
It was private and their business (75)
16.56%
They should have mediation and sort it out between themselves. (35)
7.73%
Officers and the ones making jokes about known students should be expelled. (86)
18.98%
The university should consider damage to its reputation and expell. (100)
22.08%
999tigger
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#1
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#1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-44052070
Excuse if already posted.
Eleven students have been suspended from the University of Warwick after rape jokes made in a Facebook group chat emerged.
Student online papers The Boar and The Tab obtained screenshots from a group message, with one talking about raping "100 girls".
The Boar says 98 screenshots have been submitted as evidence.
The university said it is "actively" investigating and would not comment further.
The students that have been suspended are all men and are facing "disciplinary processes".

One message said: "Sometimes it's fun to just go wild and rape 100 girls."
While another said: "Rape the whole flat to teach them all [a] lesson."
Further racist remarks included "love Hitler, hate... Jews and Corbyn."



Following on from the Exeter students that were expelled we have another similar situation. The Boar and the Tab articles go into much greater detail.
https://theboar.org/2018/05/warwick-...ily-suspended/
https://thetab.com/uk/warwick/2018/0...oup-chat-28392

Update from this morning- The student journos have been busy identifying people. I note no law students this time. makes a change.

https://thetab.com/uk/warwick/2018/0...oup-chat-28615


For
Just jokes and not illegal.
Was a private group
Free speech

Against
Causes actual harm
Some of the rape comments concerned actual students.
Normalises behaviour.
Does damage to the university,


Imo
They have 100 screenshots, which is quite a few. Following on from Exeter, then I expect some of them to be expelled. The ones just making tasteless jokes I think might be given a warning.

Those holding official office and the ones talking about raping known students will be held to have infringed more seriously. A few jokes might have been ignored, but 100 might seem to have been more than a passing fad.
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Notoriety
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#2
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#2
Thought Police strikes again!

I won't quite be contented until we criminalise particular thoughts, in addition to aspects of benign speech. If we want purity of spirit, this is what is required.
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Andrew97
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#3
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The sheer number of the jokes is the issue here and the reason they will be kicked (if they are). 100 screenshots is a lot. It’s not like one made a tasteless joke once and never again (which we have all probably done).
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Notoriety
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(Original post by Andrew97)
The sheer number of the jokes is the issue here and the reason they will be kicked (if they are). 100 screenshots is a lot. It’s not like one made a tasteless joke once and never again (which we have all probably done).
Either 1 tasteless joke is wrong (and by extension 100 SCs of them are wrong) or 1 tasteless joke is not wrong (and by extension 100 SCs of them are not wrong). I don't see how the large number changes anything, other than perhaps suggesting these were not said "for joke reasons". In that case, I think the university should be more concerned with rapes these students have committed and less concerned with jokes said in a private chat.

999tigger did you put this poll on? Mediation? I think you've been doing too much of ACAS grievance advice. "Causes actual harm" because it concerned particular students -- wrong. Those students would not, in the expectation of the posters in the GC, have ever seen the info.

Interest that I mention ACAS, the process of grievance meetings are underpinned by natural justice, so an employer cannot behave contrary to this. The university should review the messages in vacuo and use the principles of natural justice to objectively assess the situation, and the specific culpability of participants' particular acts and so on, and should not consider reputation (which does not depend on the in vacuo culpability of the participants, namely because the participants never expected the private information to be leaked (nor should they have an expectation such information might be leaked, unless those jokes are inherently in vacuo culpable)).

I disagree that it normalises behaviour, because tasteless jokes are told because they are shocking. They are based on a societal rejection of an idea, a rejection you implicitly have also, which you shock others by exploiting for humorous effect. If it were "normalised" then it would not be shock humour. It would be making a joke about a kettle, inherently normal and not shock worthy. Its being normal would mean it would lose shock value. I can only see one scenario where people might joke about this even though they do not find it shocking, and that is when it involves genuine rapists. I find it rather unlikely these students are monsters of this order.
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999tigger
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#5
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Tried to make it as balanced as possible. That includes the poll, which you can select more than one answer. The boar article is much more in depth.
I have a feeling the ones holding official office and the ones discussing raping identifiable students will be expelled. The university is going to be just as interested in its reputation, which will be damaged if they are seen to condone and tolerate such students. It sounds as though it is worse than Exeter.
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AngeryPenguin
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#6
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#6
Making tasteless jokes is never acceptable. In public or in private.

If free speech means the freedom to spread hate and offense, then it is not something I can support.

What is the issue here is that it shouldn't be up to the university to police hate speech. This should be reported to the police and dealt with by them, like all other crimes.
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the bear
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#7
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the authorities are right to clamp down on "humour"... it is a symptom of free thought which is antithetical to a productive cohesive society.
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DarthRoar
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#8
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It's a difficult issue. I think that people should be able to make outrageous statements like this in a private chat as a joke, because it doesn't hurt anybody it's just an edgy form of group humour.

However, I think the line is crossed when specific people become named in these statements. It makes the statement go from an abstract edgy joke to more of a specific incitation.

The sheer volume is also damning for them. A few statements like this are reprehensible but should be allowed, but so many are not really acceptable. Although, we don't know the time period of this chat. The screenshots could be small snippets of a chat that has gone on for years.
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Joleee
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#9
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#9
when will teenagers learn not to put stupid **** online???
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the beer
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Notoriety)
Thought Police strikes again!

I won't quite be contented until we criminalise particular thoughts
We already do don't we? You can't go altering your thoughts however you like with illicit drugs.
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OrganicCrystal
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#11
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(Original post by Notoriety)
Thought Police strikes again!

I won't quite be contented until we criminalise particular thoughts, in addition to aspects of benign speech. If we want purity of spirit, this is what is required.
tfw can't laugh at rape victims in TWENTY EIGHTEEN durr sjws!!!!
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crecookiesx
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#12
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#12
Everyone just keep reporting them! We need more of this.
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Joleee
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#13
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#13
(Original post by OrganicCrystal)
tfw can't laugh at rape victims in TWENTY EIGHTEEN durr sjws!!!!
this.
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999tigger
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Notoriety)
Either 1 tasteless joke is wrong (and by extension 100 SCs of them are wrong) or 1 tasteless joke is not wrong (and by extension 100 SCs of them are not wrong). I don't see how the large number changes anything, other than perhaps suggesting these were not said "for joke reasons". In that case, I think the university should be more concerned with rapes these students have committed and less concerned with jokes said in a private chat.

999tigger did you put this poll on? Mediation? I think you've been doing too much of ACAS grievance advice. "Causes actual harm" because it concerned particular students -- wrong. Those students would not, in the expectation of the posters in the GC, have ever seen the info.

Interest that I mention ACAS, the process of grievance meetings are underpinned by natural justice, so an employer cannot behave contrary to this. The university should review the messages in vacuo and use the principles of natural justice to objectively assess the situation, and the specific culpability of participants' particular acts and so on, and should not consider reputation (which does not depend on the in vacuo culpability of the participants, namely because the participants never expected the private information to be leaked (nor should they have an expectation such information might be leaked, unless those jokes are inherently in vacuo culpable)).

I disagree that it normalises behaviour, because tasteless jokes are told because they are shocking. They are based on a societal rejection of an idea, a rejection you implicitly have also, which you shock others by exploiting for humorous effect. If it were "normalised" then it would not be shock humour. It would be making a joke about a kettle, inherently normal and not shock worthy. Its being normal would mean it would lose shock value. I can only see one scenario where people might joke about this even though they do not find it shocking, and that is when it involves genuine rapists. I find it rather unlikely these students are monsters of this order.
The mediation was in reference to a suggestion by one of the responders to the article. Apparently one of the ongoing debates was about raping students they knew in a certain flat because of some sort of dispute. Mediation was mentioned as a means of resolving the grievance and thereby removing one of the reasons for conflict.
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crecookiesx
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#15
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The thing is, it isn't that students are suddenly posting vile and repugnant content. There have been **** people for ages. It is just that more people are becoming aware of its unacceptability, which is actually a good thing. Society is changing and rejecting these views (that are often subtly expressed in humor or other colloquial forms) and I believe that anyone caught should be held accountable and take responsibility.
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IDOZ
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#16
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#16
98 screenshots...
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crecookiesx
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#17
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#17
I think maybe people are unwilling to accept the Universities decision to this because perhaps they've made similar jokes.
I have and I'll try to talk about it.

I'll admit, I used to be a homophobe and go "ew" when I saw two men kissing but you don't grow from being exposed by someone else. You have to expose yourself. Sometime back in 2014, I wrote a lengthy post on Facebook on how I was a hater of homosexuality and how it was taught to me and how I overcame it. Here's a snippet: "In the end, I wasn't actually homophobic. I was just copying what seemed to be cool for me at the time..."

I questioned my views and I learnt from my past behavior to become accepting of other groups similar to the homosexuals in terms of experiencing mainstream ostracision. I am actually very upset and disgusted by the person I was, but that isn't who I am anymore.

I'm really glad I made that post though, because recently I had someone try to get me excluded for homophobic behavior. I had this post to show that I had changed and I wasn't the same person. I never got in trouble or "excluded" or anything. I'm just really grateful I called myself out on my wrongdoings, and I do think this is better than someone else exposing you and an "I'm sorry I got caught" apology.

If you've said similar things to the Uni students from Warwick, why don't you publicly reject your views? It doesn't have to be online for all to see - but you could message those you've shared the comments with, or even the group chat yourself.
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Axiomasher
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#18
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Plenty of idiot teenagers probably indulge in this kind of awful stuff before they get into an institutional context and that's what makes the difference they don't understand. When a university finds out that this kind of communication is happening among its students it is compelled to act and send out a strong message as to its unacceptability. The obvious lesson is don't be a horrible person but if you can't help it at least learn to keep your mouth shut.
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Phoebee1998
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#19
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(Original post by Notoriety)
Thought Police strikes again!

I won't quite be contented until we criminalise particular thoughts, in addition to aspects of benign speech. If we want purity of spirit, this is what is required.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. If you want to be an ******** then go ahead, but the University has every right to kick you.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
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999tigger
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#20
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#20
Perhaps the uni might make their no tolerance approach or draw the students attention to their guidelines at the time of giving the offer? I still think there is a difference between the ones who are also officers in societies and the ones identifying fellow students v the ones that are not. Going from the Exeter example, then it could other students and people who might make gifts to the uni, so the damage from there point of view can be substantial, especially if it hits the headlines again.
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