Management Conversion Course after Law Degree

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sofiaraposo
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sofiaraposo
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Mind elaborating on why it wouldn't be a good option and as to why it is not innovative?
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Notoriety
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Mind elaborating on why it wouldn't be a good option and as to why it is not innovative?
Not to speak for John, the criticism for the MLaw course is that if you're in the running for a firm, generally they will pay for your LPC anyway. BPTC is a different story, but you can get scholarships and you need that top-name brand that the MLaw courses simply do not have. It is quite the exercise in futility, then, if you're using SFE to pay for your LPC when a firm would pay for it anyway or you're paying for your LPC yourself while having little prospect of using it.

This is quite fair, but there are some situations where it can be useful. BPTC especially so, if you're some brilliant person and you know you can get school records: the BCL will make up for uni brand, though this is rare (and you could get scholarships to cover it). Most people (who actually manage to get pupillage) tend to take it up work in criminal and other non-competitive areas. LPC side can be useful because you can get into the small regionals who don't pay for LPC (but then again they like to recruit in house, so you might have to go paralegal route anyway (and they usually pay for in-house trainees' LPC)). The main stain is that you paid for your LPC rather than got it sponsored, and that is usually perceived as failure.

It is not innovative because Northumbria has been doing it for years. I have a mate who took the MLaw with LPC, got a very high first and now is working in publishing because he couldn't get any traction with City firms. Even with high grades, everyone knows it's from a sub-standard uni, and this should do harm to your chances. I am sure J-SP will disagree, but I know a lot about the MLaw programme at Northy and I know that these people (with good A-Levels, from good schools, and have good connects and marshalling and all that other good stuff) have decent ECs and drive to succeed. But they don't have the same chances as the bare 2:1er from a half-decent RG, a lot of the time.

EDIT: I tag J-SP to give you a second opinion which will disagree with mine, no doubt. But she will also knows lots about several recruitment sectors, and might be able to advise re transferring from law to management.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Hi!

I am a University of Westminster law student. I am studying M-Law, a 4-year degree after which I get an LLB + Masters + LPC. I know that getting a training contract is very hard and I am afraid of not having a lot of options after I finish my degree, so I thought about doing a conversion course after I finish the fourth and final year of my degree.

Would an international management degree from Royal Holloway University of London (1-year conversion course) open doors for me? Would it help me getting a training contract or securing a job in another good line of work?

Thank you.
the masters from Royal Holloway will cost £10,400 plus living costs (do you live locally)? You would need a big door to open for that to have a payback.

If you are somewhat numerate could could look at commercial management or taxation - both would give business training while you earn a salary if you don't get a training contract. If not numerate why not look into HR and be a bit focused on that stream?
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(Original post by J-SP)
Any course is not “useless” and it’s completely narrow minded to think of it as such.

People have also got to stop thinking that recruitment for the legal sector is what the commercial firms do - it really doesn’t work like that. Firms that sponsor the LPC are in the minority of training contracts available - probably about 35% and are pretty much limited to a specific set of commercial firms in major cities. If you want to work outside of these areas, the assumption a firm will sponsor your LPC is crazy.

So I do disagree with both Notorious and Johan - they are looking at it from an exceptionally narrow point of view.
What I thought you'd disagree with is me saying that commercial firms would see Northy LLB/MLaw as sub-standard (as it genuinely is). I actually did talk about the benefits of MLaw for firms who don't sponsor, though it was a lengthy post.

(Original post by J-SP)
Can you stop tagging me in posts? If I want to respond I will...
Apologies.
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(Original post by J-SP)
It isn’t “sub-standard” it is just not a true “LLM” in the same way combined LPC/LLM courses from UoL or BPP are not a true LLMs.

But because as a legal graduate recruiter I was never really bothered about whether someone had an LLM or not, and regularly told students and heard other recruiters say at events that there was no need to do an LLM course, then it’s not really the issue you are making it out to be anyway.

I’d definitely not be encouraging people to do another masters course anyway, but I could say that for most undergraduates from most universities.
I never even mentioned Northumbria as a comparison to an LLM and I am not sure why you're suddenly talking about it. Might be that I am doing one and like usual you're trying to bring me down a bit.

As above, I never mentioned LLM -- John was on about that. I was saying Northy and Westy are truly sub-standard law courses from LLB to PhD. The sad thing is applicants can be quite naive and only know a little about LPC/BPTC, and think that Northy would be a decent solution to an imagined problem, and they end up taking Northy and the likes over stronger regional unis (for which they have the grades). I am talking A*AA-istas taking Northy over ****ing Durham! CRAZINESS.
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(Original post by J-SP)
I’m not trying to bring anyone down - I’m just trying to present the reality of how it works from an employability perspective, not an academic one (the OP never brought this up, you and Johan did as the basis of your views).

Maybe the OP doesn’t have the grades to get in to anywhere but Westminster. The assumption they should have gone somewhere better is again short sighted. You don’t know their reasons for choosing Westminster - it often comes down to very personal choices rather than thinking about what someone else might think about the academic worthiness of your course/uni.

Yes, degrees are not equal - despite Johan’s attempts to belittle my view, I have never claimed they are equal. But neither are the people that study the degree. And when it comes to recruitment, you hire a person not a degree certificate.
Well, again, I never said OP might have been able to get somewhere "better". I just criticised the MLaw generally and I know it can do some harm; quite inappropriate to pretend my general criticism must have been in relation to OP's circumstances.

I did go to pains to say that the shite academics should affect your chances, which is why I brought you in because I knew you'd say that firms could overlook that/do your normal faux egalitarian spiel. The would question requires some practical knowledge. I only know about top-tier grads from shoddy unis having a rough ride, even though they have all the other things you lot like. I wonder if though you'd not care about uni, other people in the recruitment process might be so biased.
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(Original post by J-SP)
I know enough trainee/lawyers from “shoddy unis” who have managed it, not just in the firms I have recruited but elsewhere. Plus, I was never the person solely making the hiring decisions - there were at least 3 other people involved in each person I hired across the firms I worked for. So it can’t just be my “not caring”.
So you never recruited these shoddy uni trainees, but when you did, 3 other people were involved with each of them.

This takes the biscuit for stupid comment of the day.
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(Original post by J-SP)
Or you just don’t understand the process.

I am the recruiter. It doesn’t mean I interview each individual candidate on my own. For training contracts that was done by at least three other people and I then worked with those people to decide whether an offer should be made.
Yeah, that's what just happened right now. You have maintained for years that there is no bias because you're this **** hot recruiter and you have recruited people from all the unis you could imagine and their academics were taken on face value and you progressed onto other considerations. Now you confess that you have never directly someone from a shite uni. In other words, your argument comes from knowing people from shoddy unis at top firms. Well, that's just as forceful as my argument of knowing Northy grads struggle to even get vacs with Muckle and Hadaway.

That is just gross ad hominem, again trying to put me down. I know quite well how the TC recruitment process works; I never knew where you fit in, as you talked about being consultant rather than recruiter. The argument I made previously is that the partners interviewing the applicant might have inherent biases that someone is not bright because they're from Middlesex Uni, which colours their whole perception of the applicant. Though they might never directly refer to it. (Now you're saying you were never a part of that process.)

From my anecdotal evidence, the TCs from shoddy unis at the top City firms tend to have good firsts. Wrong or right? Almost as if that partner who knows about academic law knows that a first is needed to rebut the shoddiness of the uni!
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(Original post by J-SP)
This is almost funny.

I have recruited people from shite unis. I said I have never SOLELY recruited someone. But that would be the case for any graduate role I have recruited for. I am not the one SOLELY responsible for making that decision.
That simply does not correspond to what you said. You know people from shoddy unis and said not for firms you've recruited for but elsewhere. How does that come to mean "sole recruiter"? And then you expressed you were never "sole recruiter".

Either you're lying to cover up looking like a tit, or you expressed yourself very poorly. I am not bothered either way: talk to John, he's more interested in your BS.
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username738914
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Hi!

I am a University of Westminster law student. I am studying M-Law, a 4-year degree after which I get an LLB + Masters + LPC. I know that getting a training contract is very hard and I am afraid of not having a lot of options after I finish my degree, so I thought about doing a conversion course after I finish the fourth and final year of my degree.

Would an international management degree from Royal Holloway University of London (1-year conversion course) open doors for me? Would it help me getting a training contract or securing a job in another good line of work?

Thank you.
There is no such thing as a "management conversion degree".

Apply to grad schemes/jobs or apply to a better university for the brand (to then apply to grad schemes/jobs again but with better odds) or both.

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sofiaraposo
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Hello.

I want to thank all of you for giving me your advice, I appreciate it.

I just want to make it clear that I am not desperate about getting a training contract. I asked if it was a good idea to take the International Management course to see if anyone knew whether it would open doors for me both in the legal and non-legal sector.

To the person who wondered why I chose Westminster, it was because I am an EU student and I did not do that law exam UK students have to do before applying to University. Plus the degree seemed to be good.

To the person saying I did not give you anything to work with, well no one really asked me anything. With that did you mean I should have provided you information about my grades? my background? I am expected to finish with a first, am fluent in three languages and had very good results in secondary school.

I am editing this because I forgot to mention that I do not have problems with time or self-funding.
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sofiaraposo
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(Original post by J-SP)
Ok - the international management masters is unlikely to help you both in terms of legal recruitment and most other sectors outside of it. Only do it if it’s something you personally want to pursue rather than for the aim of trying to get into a specific career. It would probably create more questions over your motivation/focus if you did decide to pursue a legal career.
Thank you very much for all the advice you have given me.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Hello.

I am an EU student and I did not do that law exam UK students have to do before applying to University. Plus the degree seemed to be good.

To the person saying I did not give you anything to work with, well no one really asked me anything. With that did you mean I should have provided you information about my grades? my background? I am expected to finish with a first, am fluent in three languages and had very good results in secondary school.
Those are massively important factors in any advice given.

Speak languages - huge difference to your employability, especially for multinational businesses. Makes the masters seem far more applicable.

Going for a first - strong academics. Bit of a stand out especially with you high school grades.

EU background. Are you from a country or considering employment in countries where having a masters is the norm for managerial level work? If so this makes the value of the masters far greater.

Without the information above I would have thought that the masters might be a net negative. With the additional information this changes the thought process.
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sofiaraposo
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(Original post by J-SP)
What careers are you considering outside of law?
Either Law or Management really. If I were to pursue a career in Law I would be limited to this jurisdiction. However, I believe with the International Management Degree, which is advertised as a conversion course, I would be able to get a job in the sector here and back in my home country. But I do not know how well regarded such qualification is, that is one of the reasons why I asked the question.
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username738914
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Either Law or Management really. If I were to pursue a career in Law I would be limited to this jurisdiction. However, I believe with the International Management Degree, which is advertised as a conversion course, I would be able to get a job in the sector here and back in my home country. But I do not know how well regarded such qualification is, that is one of the reasons why I asked the question.
What do you mean by "Management"?

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sofiaraposo
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(Original post by ajj2000)
Those are massively important factors in any advice given.

Speak languages - huge difference to your employability, especially for multinational businesses. Makes the masters seem far more applicable.

Going for a first - strong academics. Bit of a stand out especially with you high school grades.

EU background. Are you from a country or considering employment in countries where having a masters is the norm for managerial level work? If so this makes the value of the masters far greater.

Without the information above I would have thought that the masters might be a net negative. With the additional information, this changes the thought process.
With "the masters" I assume you mean the International Management masters and not the LPC + Law one.

Thank you very much for the positive feedback! I guess I should have stated that information earlier but I was bombarded with so many negative comments that I did not know what to do.

I have checked some managerial job application requirements (in my country) and several good offers mentioned that they required a managerial degree at either bachelor or master's level. I don't know about the UK though.
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sofiaraposo
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(Original post by J-SP)
What’s your home country?

It’s not a conversion course - that’s just a marketing ploy by the university. You don’t need a Management degree to work in Management.
Spain.

I checked several management masters and the ones advertised as "conversion courses" state that they are for people with no previous background in management. Whilst the normal management masters, at least the ones I checked, seemed to have been thought for people who did a management undergrad degree. If that is not the case, then even better, I can apply to a better Uni if I decide that I really want to do this.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by sofiaraposo)
ld

With "the masters" I assume you mean the International Management masters and not the LPC + Law one.

Thats correct. I'm not sure embedded masters would count for a lot of European countries?

(Original post by sofiaraposo)
Thank you very much for the positive feedback! I guess I should have stated that information earlier but I was bombarded with so many negative comments that I did not know what to do.
To be fair, I'd assume that unless told otherwise anyone posting a question is the age the course they are taking would suggest, British and monolingual (as far as employability goes) and largely planning on a career in the UK.

Anything different - its best to state it as general advice can be very wrong. Possibly for law (my knowledge is limited but I've known 'languages' candidates get great legal jobs without the LPC), certainly in businesses.

Which languages do you speak?


(Original post by sofiaraposo)

I have checked some managerial job application requirements (in my country) and several good offers mentioned that they required a managerial degree at either bachelor or master's level. I don't know about the UK though.
Yes - doesn't surprise me at all. I've had friends do the Birkbeck masters in management/ business despite having Phds in other subjects. When I worked in continental Europe for an MNC I found myself a bit limited by not having a masters.

Some of the advice above is very UK centric. To me a generalist masters looks a bit strange, if not flaky. But that's an someone who hires in the UK.

Lots of countries as you say do seem set on masters - I understand why the course is described as a conversion course. For jobs with multinationals in the UK (which would be attractive for someone with lots of languages) any hiring department would understand why you did a masters.
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