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    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
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    Becoming a police state would be attacking the symptoms rather than the cause of the malaise. As is typical under enw labour.

    The real reasons for the malaise lies in the fragmentation of our society, due to the government and many peoples lack of respect for its value.

    In essence i believe over consumerism and capitalism as it is practiced in this country is the chief cause of the problems.
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    (Original post by MrMat18)
    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
    Will I get to wear a Guy Fawkes mask and watch Hugo Weaving blwo things up in this wonderful new world?
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    (Original post by MrMat18)
    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
    You are thus in a class full of morons. I do hope for your sake there isn't streaming.

    Do they know what a police state really is, and what it entails?
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    (Original post by MrMat18)
    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
    I really, really hope that this... person is just a troll.
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    "...with all the numbers of murder, rape etc..."

    yes, the numbers are low, lower than almost any society at any point in human history, for **** sake

    police respond to crime, they rarely prevent it, we already have the most CCTV cameras per head and the highest proportion of people on a national DNA database globally, does that stop disillusioned young kids and adults comitting crimes ? (real criminals are a phenominal minority). I think a renewed ethos of discipline could do some good but that has nothing to do with a police state.
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    MI5 and Special branch have been doing that role for years where I live.

    Would English want it? Not a chance.

    Police states do not solve murder, they do not solve rape, they do not solve anti social behaviour. Anti social behaviour is a reflection of a society, it means problems must be addressed. No amount of monitoring will solve it.

    Whoever thinks ID cards will solve the problem are either extremely niave, or having a ****ing laugh.
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    (Original post by MrMat18)
    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
    Did your class really suggest this?

    This suggests an increasing drop in the awareness of recent history, especially that experienced in nations where a police state, an embedded police state, was operative; Korea under Pol Pot, China, Soviet Russia, the DDR. These are more obvious examples, quick to emerge from the public memory -yet I didn't realise that people had forgotten the iniquities that individuals' experience in living, or trying to lead, 'normal' lives within these regimes.

    I would never cede any more power to the UK Government, nor to the police; the exercise of arbitrary power; the routine arming of the police; the dissolution of habeus corpus and the intensification of public surveillance are all elements of the police state that seem too close in the UK already. Arbitrary violence only spurns more violence, it does not solve deep-seated issues of social differentiation, inequality, violence and tension. These can only be diverted by directly challenging the underlying social and economic problems through which they are created.
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    Doesnt suprise me in the least they suggested that.
    It is a similar mindset to supporting all the anti terror laws.
    Quite common.
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    (Original post by Zebedee)
    In essence i believe over consumerism and capitalism as it is practiced in this country is the chief cause of the problems.
    So why is it widely accepted that they have increased massively since 1950, during which time Britain was becoming more and more socialist?
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    What would a police state solve? Where would the manpower to make a police state work come from?

    Also, what would it achieve?

    In Northern Ireland during the late 1960s the troops were originally sent in to protect the Catholic communities. Yet soon after, the IRA began their campaign.

    What would happen to the 80,000 or so people in prisons? Capital punishment for the lot? Deportation to the sands of Saudi Arabia or the mountains of Afghanistan?

    Would the rules of engagement on the streets be "shoot first and ask questions later"? If so, for how long would you have the people on the side of the police state before the piles of innocent victims grew to be too much.

    If the people can overthrow the communist police states of Eastern Europe, they could do exactly the same thing over here - especially as we have no history of putting up with tyrants who really do impose such heavy-handed rules.

    If it's a case of having an "execution-fest" of all the runty-blokes around at present I can see where the frustration may come from - back in 1996 I wrote pretty similar stuff in my diary when I was doing my GCSEs. (Basically capital punishment for all those people who scared me/ that I didn't like.)

    I also wonder what difference building strong, prosperous, inclusive and integrated communities would make - i.e. where a culture of respect and responsibility for each other were things that went hand in hand for all of us.

    One question to ask is this:

    Have politicians and lawyers taken away society's ability to police itself?
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    It's already happening by a process of incrementalism and possibly without even being intended. Like on Question Time the Lib Dem baroness said this government cannot see why they shouldn't have more and more power, there is no concept that liberty sometimes requires sacrificing security and reacting to the consequences rather than preventing them in order to protect the freedom of innocent people. There is no disconnect in the opinion of this government between the innocent and the guilty.
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    I doubt the government would get so "conservative" now, to be honest. Conservative movements, such as police states are reserved for more radical situations, when the government gets cornered. I actually agree with such movements if the situation requires it, but in this case, it doesn't.
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    (Original post by MrMat18)
    Bit nuts I but we were having a discussion in politics today, an alot of people seemed to agree Britain needs to become a police state in order to stop the growing number of anti social behavouir, theft,murder,rape and stop all sorts of crime. This discussion came about with the news that the government is going ahead with plans to rollout I.D cards. What does everyone think?
    Is anti-social behaviour really on the rise or are we just more sensitive to it and have a greater expectation that we should not be subject to it? Are those other crimes increasing per-capita too? Drawing conclusions about actual crime from recorded crime is notoriously difficult too.

    It's not my intention to trivialise crime and anti-social behaviour, far from it, but I am of the view that the media are a significant element today in inculcating our anxieties about these things.
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    ASBOs should be abolished, they are a disgrace to everything Britian has ever stood for. The idea that one can be handed arbitrary punishments by a judge acting without a jury simply because a group of others would like that to happen, without the necessity for evidence of any crime having been commited, is utterly repugnant.
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    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Will I get to wear a Guy Fawkes mask and watch Hugo Weaving blwo things up in this wonderful new world?

    And will I be able to visit Stephen Fry's wonderful underground bunker of renaissance & modern art?

    No, I don't think we should have a police state. Tbh, it sounds like your class were just having one of those teenage moments of thought experimentation ie. "This would be a good idea!" without actually thinking through the consequences and direct implications of such an action.

    Sit them down to watch The Last Enemy on BBC that has been showing on Sundays, or Children of Men etc.

    Failing this, get them to read some history books. People, I think on the whole, should be treated like people and not state pawns etc.
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    Would a police state reduce crime? One of the hallmarks of a police state is that information such as crime statistics is either unavailable, or is totally subject to a politicised bureaucracy. The question can't be answered, but that police states don't trust the population enough to give them that kind of information I'd say no. If anything the country would be worse to live in as people would be more free to abuse what power they have.
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    (Original post by Catsmeat)
    I would never cede any more power to the UK Government, nor to the police; the exercise of arbitrary power; the routine arming of the police; the dissolution of habeus corpus and the intensification of public surveillance are all elements of the police state that seem too close in the UK already. Arbitrary violence only spurns more violence, it does not solve deep-seated issues of social differentiation, inequality, violence and tension. These can only be diverted by directly challenging the underlying social and economic problems through which they are created.
    Superb post ... Catsmeat .... :king1:

    I completely agree 100% with the comments above, but also would like to add on a speech which was aired many years ago in the US – I think it raises many interesting points: (I know its a lot but its worth it)

    I don’t have to tell you things are bad, everybody knows things are bad, the dollar buys the nickel’s worth, banks going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter, punks are running wild in the street – there is no one anywhere that seems to know what to do and there seems to be no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breath and our food is unfit to eat and as we sit to watch our TV while some local news caster tells that today we had 15 homicides and 63 violent crimes as if that’s the way things are supposed to be. We know things are bad – worse than bad – they are crazy and it’s like everything everywhere is going crazy – so we don’t go out anymore – we sit in the house and slowly the world we are living in gets smaller and all we say is please at least leave us alone in our living room – let me have my toaster my TV and radio and I won’t say anything – just leave us alone... well I am not going to leave you alone – I want you to get mad – I don’t want you to protest and I don’t want you write to your congress men because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write – I don’t know what to do about the depression, the inflation, the Russians and the crime in the street – all that I know is that first you have got to get mad – you have got to say I am a human being – God damn it – my life has value.

    With the "police-state", we violate that principle of freedom that life brings.
    If a person commits a crime – criminal law will step in – and as a result of changes there, I am sure that it will be reduced.
 
 
 
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