Anti Depressants Watch

emerley
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#41
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#41
(Original post by YAP)
I don't see why your post warranted a neg rep, it was a perfectly reasonable question . Glad it didn't do any damage; I'd have pos repped you to balance it out if that was the case, given I see neg rep as the enemy of reason.
That's exactly what I thought! Perhaps they hate me for starting this big debate off! :rolleyes: Interesting to read what everyone thinks though!
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YAP
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#42
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#42
(Original post by Laus)
As I said before, those people obviously didn't need a bloody pill in the first place! All participants were suffering from mild depression i.e. something that, in my opinion, does not require a life-saving pill in the first place! If someone who is low is given a placebo and told that it will magic all of their problems away, chances are, it may.
Again, Laus is right here and is saying precisely what is well-known medical knowledge:

Mild depression = talking therapies, the drugs don't do much. Some people talk anti-deps out of their GPs as they 'don't have time' for counselling.
Moderate depression = urgent talking therapy or lower dose medication whilst waiting for non-urgent talking therapy
Severe depression = immediate medication, close monitoring, aim towards talking therapy once medication has balanced out enough for it to work.

And you know what else? A large percentage of those who ask for anti-depressants for mild-depression don't actually bother 'cashing in' the prescription - they feel better just for having talked to their GP about their situation, as a miniature form of counselling. But for severe, crippling depression, medication works.

It's like with alcohol, give someone orange juice and inform them it has vodka in it (when it doesn't), a large majority will act drunk (this was in the newspaper not so long ago). That doesn't mean that actual alcoholic beverages don't have an effect on your body.
I read about that - what a wonderful example to compare to .
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tom_tom_tom
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#43
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i got neg rep aswell .. for my comment on page one!

i didnt think it was that bad!

mayb someone didnt understand the whole concept on the placebo effect!
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*starry_eyed_*
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#44
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I find this quite interesting. I went on some stronger anti depressants before xmas. Before having my doasge upped, I was having nightmares everynight, not sleeping for more than a couple of hourse and was missing uni. Then after xmas, I had a period of about 3 weeks where I thought the anti depressants were really kicking in- I was delightfully happy for the first time in I don't know how long. But now its gone back to how it was before xmas, where I just don't give a damn about anything in my life. I'm so miserable again. So basically, who knows what the anti depressants are doing to your friend- they may have already kicked in to the point where she feels she can be happy again...or it might just be a [part of the rollercoaster effect.
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YAP
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#45
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#45
(Original post by tom_tom_tom)
i got neg rep aswell .. for my comment on page one! mayb someone didnt understand the whole concept on the placebo effect!
Is it just me or are the wrong people being negged in this thread?

The placebo effect is fascinating. Here's an example - Parkinson's disease is caused by the death of dopaminergic neurons in certain parts of the brain. Some of the treatments involve medication which work on increasing dopamine levels, making the surviving neurons work better. Now, in trials where patients are issued with placebos, the placebo patients have measurably increased dopamine levels - even though there was absolutely nothing in the medication to have that effect, it still increases dopamine levels, and there is reported improvement of symptoms. Only short lived though, the patients realise they're kidding themselves after a couple of weeks, which is seen often in trials against placebo - for the first two weeks, no measurable difference and/or placebo wins, then it starts to change and the group on the active medication (who are getting a 'forced' benefit) feel better.

But anyhow, this is just an aside - anti-depressants aren't placebos .
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Satine
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#46
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#46
I believe that mania, which I think can manifest itself as ecstatic happiness (can anyone confirm this?) is a side-effect of some antidepressants (though I think it's very unusual), but it's not supposed to happen and I would assume that a doctor would want you to switch if it did.

This is literally based on stuff I've read in pharmaceutical leaflets, though - I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert.
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YAP
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#47
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(Original post by Satine)
I believe that mania, which I think can manifest itself as ecstatic happiness (can anyone confirm this?) is a side-effect of some antidepressants (though I think it's very unusual), but it's not supposed to happen and I would assume that a doctor would want you to switch if it did.
You're entirely right, it is a listed side effect. It's on the drug labels because in trials for safety they give them to healthy volunteers to see what happens; and if non-depressed people take some anti-depressants long-term (particularly the stronger ones such as venlafaxine) they can develop hypomania.

In this case though, maybe the OP didn't know her before she was mildly depressed, and in fact she's just a naturally hyper person and has cheered up after talking over her problems with her GP. If that has sorted her out, good for her , if only all depression was so easy - I still have family who have been depressed for 18 months, and the medication is a lifeline to help give them some encouragement to do something, rather than just stay in bed all day.
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emerley
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#48
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#48
(Original post by YAP)
You're entirely right, it is a listed side effect. It's on the drug labels because in trials for safety they give them to healthy volunteers to see what happens; and if non-depressed people take some anti-depressants long-term (particularly the stronger ones such as venlafaxine) they can develop hypomania.

In this case though, maybe the OP didn't know her before she was mildly depressed, and in fact she's just a naturally hyper person and has cheered up after talking over her problems with her GP. If that has sorted her out, good for her , if only all depression was so easy - I still have family who have been depressed for 18 months, and the medication is a lifeline to help give them some encouragement to do something, rather than just stay in bed all day.
True I didn't know her until I came to uni and she has been pretty down all that time, but she's literally only just gone on them so either they work very quickly, or perhaps like you said talking it through did help her. Who knows!
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tom_tom_tom
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#49
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#49
(Original post by YAP)
Is it just me or are the wrong people being negged in this thread?

The placebo effect is fascinating. Here's an example - Parkinson's disease is caused by the death of dopaminergic neurons in certain parts of the brain. Some of the treatments involve medication which work on increasing dopamine levels, making the surviving neurons work better. Now, in trials where patients are issued with placebos, the placebo patients have measurably increased dopamine levels - even though there was absolutely nothing in the medication to have that effect, it still increases dopamine levels, and there is reported improvement of symptoms. Only short lived though, the patients realise they're kidding themselves after a couple of weeks, which is seen often in trials against placebo - for the first two weeks, no measurable difference and/or placebo wins, then it starts to change and the group on the active medication (who are getting a 'forced' benefit) feel better.

But anyhow, this is just an aside - anti-depressants aren't placebos .
I knw i was major confused with the whole neg rep! pull me down a level *grumble* lol o well i think reputation clouds peoples better judgement!

i wasnt saying that anti depressants were plecebos, i just thought it was an interestin side arguement, to say if u were to give a "fake" anti depressant to a person they could possibly cure the syptoms, they think there getting better so its all psychosymatic! it is intersting how the body and the mind can be manipulated and made to beleive something!
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YAP
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#50
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#50
(Original post by tom_tom_tom)
I knw i was major confused with the whole neg rep! pull me down a level *grumble*
Right, sorted that out for you.

i wasnt saying that anti depressants were plecebos,
I didn't think you were either *shrugs*.
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tom_tom_tom
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#51
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#51
(Original post by YAP)
Right, sorted that out for you.



I didn't think you were either *shrugs*.
Cheers man

i do find that rep makes people power man in some ways! o well mayb it was easy to misunderstand! still dont think a misundstanding a post is worth negative rep!

o well no need to worry about it now!
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Laus
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#52
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#52
(Original post by no hero in her sky)
You are aware that dysthymics (people with "mild depression") are more likely to die by suicide than people with "clinical depression"?

Mild depression isn't just feeling "low".
I know mild depression is not just feeling "low" but studies have shown that people with mild depression do not benefit as much from taking antidepressants. Dysthymia is a mood disorder characterised by "mild depression" but it can also be a symptom of clinical depression. I'm not saying it isn't worth treating, I just thought it makes more sense to look at different methods of treatment (i.e. not a pill), if it isn't making a difference. Although Dysthymia can be chronic, the symptoms are not as severe as say, major depression. You are right to point this out, though, as the condition is often undiagnosed or dismissed as a case of psychosomatic illness. In keeping with the topic, though, dysthymic people tend to do well in psychotherapy (medication can be used also but, as I said previously, it doesn't seem to be as effective).

Depression is so multifaceted and it is hard to say whether a person requires treatment.
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Laus
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#53
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#53
(Original post by tom_tom_tom)
i got neg rep aswell .. for my comment on page one!

i didnt think it was that bad!

mayb someone didnt understand the whole concept on the placebo effect!
Tom! It was me that mistakenly negged you :sad:! I misread your post and I know that it did not warrant a neg. Rest assured, I have posted in AAM and it should be changed to a positive, shortly…

:puppyeyes:
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Laus
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#54
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#54
YAP can attest that I was a bit pissed off with a few responses... I don't know why I negged you at the time. I honestly must have misread it because, looking back, it makes no sense whatsoever! I posted in AAM before you mentioned it on here and I was hoping that it would be sorted before you checked your rep status. If it can't be changed, I will give you pos in 28 days! I'm sure it will be, though... I don't see why not .
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tom_tom_tom
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Laus)
Tom! It was me that mistakenly negged you :sad:! I misread your post and I know that it did not warrant a neg. Rest assured, I have posted in AAM and it should be changed to a positive, shortly…

:puppyeyes:
Ha no worries , i wasnt worried about the rep it was more the fact that i was confused about how i had said somethin wrong, mayb it was entirely relevant, i just thought it could have been a interesting tangent to think about at the same time

you are forgiven , mistakes happen, the main thing is that you came forward and admitted it (Y)

thanx
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Laus
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#56
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#56
(Original post by tom_tom_tom)
Ha no worries , i wasnt worried about the rep it was more the fact that i was confused about how i had said somethin wrong, mayb it was entirely relevant, i just thought it could have been a interesting tangent to think about at the same time

you are forgiven , mistakes happen, the main thing is that you came forward and admitted it (Y)

thanx
I agree, it is very interesting! Honestly, I literally posted in AAM 10 minutes after I negged you... My post has been flagged so, hopefully, you should have +178 rep points by the end of the day .
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tom_tom_tom
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Laus)
I agree, it is very interesting! Honestly, I literally posted in AAM 10 minutes after I negged you... My post has been flagged so, hopefully, you should have +178 rep points by the end of the day .
thats cool i knw ocassionaly i can not make sense. i struggle with english and im english haha! im such a idiot :p: lol!

aww cool u have some high rep power!
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Laus
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#58
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#58
I thought this was quite interesting... (I won't include everything, just the important bits).

Dysthymia is a chronic but less severe form of depression in which depression symptoms last at least two years. Patients who suffer from dysthymia are usually able to function adequately. There is a close relationship between major depression and dysthymia. For instance, many patients with dysthymia will eventually develop major depression, and patients with major depression may eventually develop dysthymia. Patients with dysthymia may develop a major depressive episode that is referred to as double depression.

The Greek word dysthymia means “bad state of mind” or “ill humor.” As one of the two chief forms of clinical depression, it usually has fewer or less serious symptoms than major depression but lasts longer. The American Psychiatric Association defines dysthymia as depressed mood most of the time for at least two years, along with at least two of the following symptoms: poor appetite or overeating; insomnia or excessive sleep; low energy or fatigue; low self-esteem; poor concentration or indecisiveness; and hopelessness.

I'm glad no hero pointed this out:

Dysthymia is a serious disorder. It is not "minor" depression, and it is not a condition intermediate between severe clinical depression and depression in the casual colloquial sense. Sorry, guys.

More than half of people with dysthymia eventually have an episode of major depression, and about half of patients treated for major depression are suffering from this double depression. Many patients who recover partially from major depression also have milder symptoms that persist for years. This type of chronic depression is difficult to distinguish from dysthymia.

Like major depression, dysthymia has roots in genetic susceptibility, neurochemical imbalances, childhood and adult stress and trauma, and social circumstances, especially isolation and the unavailability of help. Depression that begins as a mood fluctuation may deepen and persist when equilibrium cannot be restored because of poor internal regulation or external stress.

Dysthymia runs in families and probably has a hereditary component.

The stress that provokes dysthymia, at least the early-onset form, is usually chronic rather than acute. Studies show that it usually has a gradual onset and does not follow distinct upsetting events. In old age, dysthymia is more likely to be the result of physical disability, medical illness, cognitive decline, or bereavement. In some older men, low testosterone may also be a factor. Physical brain trauma — concussions and the like — can also have surprising long-term effects on mood that often take the form of dysthymia.

Most people with dysthymia are undertreated.

Like major depression, dysthymia is treated with psychotherapy and medications — usually the same medications and the same kinds of psychotherapy. The most common drug treatments are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors like fluoxetine (Prozac) and sertraline (Zoloft), or one of the dual action antidepressants such as venlafaxine (Effexor). Some patients may do better with a tricyclic antidepressant like imipramine (Tofranil).

Supportive therapy provides advice, reassurance, sympathy, and education about the disorder. Cognitive therapy identifies and corrects thought patterns that promote self-defeating attitudes. Behavioral treatment improves social skills and teaches ways to manage stress and unlearn learned helplessness. Psychodynamic therapy helps patients resolve emotional conflicts, especially those derived from childhood experience. Interpersonal therapy helps patients cope with personal disputes, loss and separation, and transitions between social roles.

Drugs or psychotherapy?

Medication is slightly superior to psychotherapy in the treatment of dysthymia. - so I was wrong. Sorry no hero...

However... a statistical difference among a large number of patients in many different situations is not necessarily a guide for any individual case. Some patients — especially older people — will not or cannot take drugs, sometimes because of side effects or drug interactions. For many others, a combination of long-term psychotherapy and medication may be most effective. A solid relationship with a psychotherapist or other professional can be important in maintaining a willingness to continue medications.

So, I guess, it is all about finding out what works for you personally. There isn't a one size fits all treatment for depression. Which is why it's so hard to pin down?

Recovery from dysthymia often takes a long time, and the symptoms often return. One study found that 70% recovered in an average of about four years, and 50% had a recurrence. Another study found an average time to recurrence of nearly six years. After recovery, many patients find it helpful to continue doing whatever made them well — whether it was a drug or psychotherapy.

Despite much improvement, most people with dysthymia are not receiving even the imperfect available treatments. A survey of more than 800 adults with dysthymia found that only 20% had seen a mental health professional; only one-quarter had received any medication and only one-third some kind of counseling, usually brief. And a survey commissioned by the National Depressive and Manic Depressive Association found that doctors and patients often communicate poorly about the symptoms and treatment. Patients may stop taking drugs because they do not receive enough information about side effects or routine follow-up visits. For both the public and professionals, what is most important may be recognizing that dysthymia is a treatable disorder, identifying it, and following through.
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YAP
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#59
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#59
(Original post by Laus)
YAP can attest that I was a bit pissed off with a few responses...
Just a bit ;console;. I think people forget that issues surrounding anti-depressant medication affect real people, not just statistics. You had every right to be pissed off and I think you did a good job of 'manning the fort', so to speak; I just hope it hasn't taken too much out of you :hugs:.
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YAP
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#60
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#60
(Original post by no hero in her sky)
I think I have that.
It's good that you can admit it . Have you considered talking to someone about it? If you're unsure, the dep soc wouldn't be a bad place to start, just to get some informal opinions.
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