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How do trans women know what it feels like to be a woman? watch

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    After the broadcast of the channel 4 documentary, “What makes a woman”, I’ve wondered this question, and wanted to find out the opinions of people on TSR. This also applies to trans men too.

    For the record, I have absolutely nothing against trans men or women and have incredible sympathy for something that must be incredibly difficult to have to experience, I also agree with a lot of points arguing in favour of the existence of transexuality (the existence of intersex individuals, people born with ambiguous genitalia etc).

    My question really is addressing the statement, “I feel like a woman/man”, and usually when they say that, they mean that they like wearing dresses or like to wear makeup or like long hair. However many women don’t adhere to those stereotypes and there are many women who don’t have long hair and who don’t dress in a feminine manner or wear makeup. I as a cis-woman, have never given thought to why I feel like a woman, I suspect it’s due to society telling me that I am one and thus my brain has been shaped to think in such a way. How then has this social conditioning failed in some people and produced the opposite effect?
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    Because gender is a social construct.
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    (Original post by GUMI)
    Because gender is a social construct.
    I have already stated that in the OP, care to elaborate on an answer?
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    The only way you can feel like you're the wrong gender is if you also claim that gender roles and behaviour are biologically programmed. Which would provoke some rather aggressive responses from most feminists.
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    I have already stated that in the OP, care to elaborate on an answer?
    I would wager most, if not all, trans women only identify with wanting to partake in activities exclusive (mostly) to women, such as what you pointed out (clothes, makeup). This also explains why there is more trans women than trans men, because it is more socially acceptable for a woman to do male dominated activities (sports etc). Women who exhibit masculine behaviour will be labelled things like tomboy whereas males will be labelled gay (or other derogatory terms) for liking feminine things. This leads to a lot less women identifying as trans men because, as a woman, liking masculine things is socially accepted.

    It is my belief that most trans women, transition to fit better into society based on their interests, I can say the same for trans men but as pointed out above, there is less need to transition as a woman because of what is socially accepted.

    Gender is primarily a social construct, and it isn't like a trans woman will ever have a period or give birth. You can look at rachel dolezal who identified as a black person, and everyone called her out on it. Though race and gender aren't the same, they both are not a physical thing you can feel. It's all in our head
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    They don't they are not real women. Men and women think differently our brains are wired differently, you can't change that. However, if they are convincing then they know how it feels to be treated like a woman.
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    (Original post by GUMI)
    I would wager most, if not all, trans women only identify with wanting to partake in activities exclusive (mostly) to women, such as what you pointed out (clothes, makeup). This also explains why there is more trans women than trans men, because it is more socially acceptable for a woman to do male dominated activities (sports etc). Women who exhibit masculine behaviour will be labelled things like tomboy whereas males will be labelled gay (or other derogatory terms) for liking feminine things. This leads to a lot less women identifying as trans men because, as a woman, liking masculine things is socially accepted.

    It is my belief that most trans women, transition to fit better into society based on their interests, I can say the same for trans men but as pointed out above, there is less need to transition as a woman because of what is socially accepted.

    Gender is primarily a social construct, and it isn't like a trans woman will ever have a period or give birth. You can look at rachel dolezal who identified as a black person, and everyone called her out on it. Though race and gender aren't the same, they both are not a physical thing you can feel. It's all in our head
    This is actually a very interesting point I hadn’t considered. It’s true that tomboyish girls are already socially accepted therefore women who have “masculine interests” are sufficiently content with carrying on as tomboys. But any deviation from masculinity in a man is seen as questioning their sexuality and frowned upon. Society is largely to blame for these.

    Would you say that feeling like a different gender is a myth then?
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    My question really is addressing the statement, “I feel like a woman/man”, and usually when they say that, they mean that they like wearing dresses or like to wear makeup or like long hair.
    Uh, I'm pretty sure being trans is a biiiit more than wanting to "dress feminine". That would just be a crossdresser - which is a hobby, not a gender indentity. You really think transgender suicide rates are so high just because they want to wear dresses? Hell naw.

    It's easier to just imagine it as having a woman's brain in a man's body or vice versa. We're complex, intelligent beings. That kind of sentience leads to innate feelings that any of us would find hard to describe. And it really is just as simple as feeling, deep down, like the opposite sex. At least - that's how I take it. I'm not trans, idk.

    Also, knowing what it feels like to be a woman is extremely arbitrary, as women aren't a monolith and our understanding of the world comes from each of our own, unique circumstances. What it means to be a woman will be completely different to someone born in Sheffield vs someone born in Kenya vs someone who has spent their whole life in a cupboard.
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    After the broadcast of the channel 4 documentary, “What makes a woman”, I’ve wondered this question, and wanted to find out the opinions of people on TSR. This also applies to trans men too.

    For the record, I have absolutely nothing against trans men or women and have incredible sympathy for something that must be incredibly difficult to have to experience, I also agree with a lot of points arguing in favour of the existence of transexuality (the existence of intersex individuals, people born with ambiguous genitalia etc).

    My question really is addressing the statement, “I feel like a woman/man”, and usually when they say that, they mean that they like wearing dresses or like to wear makeup or like long hair. However many women don’t adhere to those stereotypes and there are many women who don’t have long hair and who don’t dress in a feminine manner or wear makeup. I as a cis-woman, have never given thought to why I feel like a woman, I suspect it’s due to society telling me that I am one and thus my brain has been shaped to think in such a way. How then has this social conditioning failed in some people and produced the opposite effect?
    Gender dysphoria is a bliss
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    (Original post by roadregu)
    Uh, I'm pretty sure being trans is a biiiit more than wanting to "dress feminine". That would just be a crossdresser - which is a hobby, not a gender indentity. You really think transgender suicide rates are so high just because they want to wear dresses? Hell naw.

    It's easier to just imagine it as having a woman's brain in a man's body or vice versa. We're complex, intelligent beings. That kind of sentience leads to innate feelings that any of us would find hard to describe. And it really is just as simple as feeling, deep down, like the opposite sex. At least - that's how I take it. I'm not trans, idk.

    Also, knowing what it feels like to be a woman is extremely arbitrary, as women aren't a monolith and our understanding of the world comes from each of our own, unique circumstances. What it means to be a woman will be completely different to someone born in Sheffield vs someone born in Kenya vs someone who has spent their whole life in a cupboard.
    But what is a woman’s brain? Isn’t that just a culmination of years of indoctrination by society on what gender you were assigned at birth? I would argue that I don’t have a woman’s brain (at least there’s no evidence that there are any physical differences) however my neural connections may be different because my early life experiences as a woman would undoubtedly be different to that of a man. I can’t identify one specific thing that contributes to my identifying as a woman, I suppose I automatically assume that I’m weaker than most men and I wear feminine clothes and wear makeup, but this doesn’t automatically make me a woman. I also see periods and ovaries as signifying womanhood, but some women are born with faulty reproductive organs or none at all. I only believe I am a woman because I adhere to female stereotypes and I was brought up by society to be a woman imo.

    How then do some people bypass this societal indoctrination to feel like the opposite gender?
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    This is actually a very interesting point I hadn’t considered. It’s true that tomboyish girls are already socially accepted therefore women who have “masculine interests” are sufficiently content with carrying on as tomboys. But any deviation from masculinity in a man is seen as questioning their sexuality and frowned upon. Society is largely to blame for these.

    Would you say that feeling like a different gender is a myth then?
    This is all very subjective but I would say "feeling" like a girl/boy is inaccurate as "feeling" is extremely subjective. Since feeling comes from your brain (I mean nerves too but yeah...), if I isolated your brain and disregarded this notion of gender altogether, you wouldn't say you felt like a girl, you would still have your interests and personality, but it would be independent of gender. That imo is what feeling is.

    A better term I'd use is "identify", as identify denotes more about what it means socially to be a gender. If someone says I identify as a girl, you can very easily visualize an average girl (or at least what society would deem feminine) and say "ok well this man obviously sees he has more in common with this image of a girl than that of a boy." Also i use the term boy/girl and male/female very liberally so please ignore any inconsistencies with the two terms.
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    But what is a woman’s brain? Isn’t that just a culmination of years of indoctrination by society on what gender you were assigned at birth? I would argue that I don’t have a woman’s brain (at least there’s no evidence that there are any physical differences) however my neural connections may be different because my early life experiences as a woman would undoubtedly be different to that of a man. I can’t identify one specific thing that contributes to my identifying as a woman, I suppose I automatically assume that I’m weaker than most men and I wear feminine clothes and wear makeup, but this doesn’t automatically make me a woman. I also see periods and ovaries as signifying womanhood, but some women are born with faulty reproductive organs or none at all. I only believe I am a woman because I adhere to female stereotypes and I was brought up by society to be a woman imo.

    How then do some people bypass this societal indoctrination to feel like the opposite gender?
    wow you are a real cuckoo

    see a doctor
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    am i allowed to identify as a woman for 5 minutes so i can use the women’s toilets if the mens one is full
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)

    How then do some people bypass this societal indoctrination to feel like the opposite gender?
    Maybe there is something genetic to it. Like how being gay is. :beard:

    (Original post by tome123)
    am i allowed to identify as a woman for 5 minutes so i can use the women’s toilets if the mens one is full
    Segregated toiletes are such a none problem that I couldn't care if a woman decided to use the men's toiletes if her's were full. Or vice versa. Regardless of the existance of trans people.

    However considering how rapey men are I can see why women might want thier own toilets. Trans women are not regular men. They are more vulnerable than cis women ffs.
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    (Original post by GUMI)
    I would wager most, if not all, trans women only identify with wanting to partake in activities exclusive (mostly) to women, such as what you pointed out (clothes, makeup). This also explains why there is more trans women than trans men, because it is more socially acceptable for a woman to do male dominated activities (sports etc). Women who exhibit masculine behaviour will be labelled things like tomboy whereas males will be labelled gay (or other derogatory terms) for liking feminine things. This leads to a lot less women identifying as trans men because, as a woman, liking masculine things is socially accepted.

    It is my belief that most trans women, transition to fit better into society based on their interests, I can say the same for trans men but as pointed out above, there is less need to transition as a woman because of what is socially accepted.

    Gender is primarily a social construct, and it isn't like a trans woman will ever have a period or give birth. You can look at rachel dolezal who identified as a black person, and everyone called her out on it. Though race and gender aren't the same, they both are not a physical thing you can feel. It's all in our head
    Do you not worry about the implications of this argument?

    The problem you identify is that lots of people say that boys who like "girly" things somehow aren't proper boys, and that girls who like "boyish" things aren't proper girls. It seems to me the trans lobby rather agrees with that sentiment, but just has a different answer.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Segregated toiletes are such a none problem that I couldn't care if a woman decided to use the men's toiletes if her's were full. Or vice versa. Regardless of the existance of trans people.
    But women take ages in the toilet compared to men. That's why there's always a massive queue for the ladies anywhere moderately busy. Don't import that into the gents', ta.

    I feel this is the real crux of the problem.
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    Gender is a social construct. Unless you're trans.

    That's the problem I see with the transgender movement. We're being told that gender is just a social invention, but at the same time, we are supposed to believe transgender people feel innately different. Obviously transwomen weren't able to be "socially conditioned" into being men and have always felt like women. That doesn't work if gender is just a social construct. That only works if gender is tied to our brains.

    Trans people (actual trans people, not trans-trenders and people with made up genders) have a genuine psychological condition. If a man is not comfortable with being a man and sees himself as a woman, it's because his (or her) brain is wired that way. Men and women have different psychology, different hormones, different brain structures, and so on. Sometimes that doesn't always match up with their gender at birth, and the individual identifies more strongly with people of the opposite gender, so he/she will act as they do. He/she may even go further and opt for surgery. I don't doubt that this is real. What I doubt, however, is all this gender-fluid nonsense and "I have short hair and don't wear women's clothes, so I'm totally a boy or, like, non-binary now."
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    the issue for me, is that there are two groups of people who currently make up the transgender community:

    Group 1:

    Spoiler:
    Show

    These people have a mental condition that causes them to have body dysphoria.. they feel immense emotional pain because their body does not match up to what their mind believes their body should be. The gender norms are or are not important for these people (but mostly are) - what is more important is their body is wrong and needs to change.

    For these people, transitioning is the only option.. their suicide rate as a group would suggest that they are not overly mentally stable thanks to this condition, and surgeries can help to relieve some of the direct symptoms. There is evidence to suggest that the suicide rate decreasing after surgery is questionable in many cases - but often this is due to a swapping of mental problems. They fix some of the body dysphoria, but they gain a huge raft of social problems, and have to live a more difficult life within society then before. It also does not always fix dysphoria, and in some cases can make it worse. Think of the two mentalities like this:

    If you really really want a cat - and I say you can visit your friend who has a cat for 1 hour... but then after that, you cannot have a cat.

    Will you be happy?

    If the answer is yes - and your attitude is that any time with a cat is better then no time with a cat.. then the sugery would work very well, as any progress in the right dirrection is better then none

    If the answer is no - and your attitude is that a small amount of time with a cat would just remind you further that actually you don't have a cat.. and never will.. then sugery may not help, as its not perfect and the aproximation of what you want, may just remind you even more that you will never have it...


    ---

    Then you get group 2:

    Spoiler:
    Show

    None of what I said above was about gender.. it was all about a persons physical sex.

    Group 2 are those people who conform to the other gender, but do not necessarily have strong and debilitating body dysphoria. (they may think that they want to be X, or if they could choose - they would choose to be X.. maybe it upsets them somewhat, but they don't have crippling mental pain over their body).

    This is the group that worries me.

    Because firstly, their ideas are a contradiction - they are entirely based around gender, which is (for me) a biologically determined and socially implemented construct. Its important to make that distinction, because both statements: "gender is biological", and "gender is social" - are true.. its both, but they are just different parts of the same equation.

    The way we interact with gender is entirely through what society dictates as our gender norms and gender rules... but these are not arbitrary, they are not just decided or just made up on a whim.. they all can be traced back to biological differences between men and womens sex or gender. For example, lets say the idea that boys are warriors and girls need to be protected - this aspect of how we view the two genders manifests itself and inforces itself within our socities, but it draws from biological differences - the average man is stronger, and men are the more disposable and less valuable sex. Or - women should be the carer of the family, and men should be the worker, which draws from the female genders greater average ability to care and nuture, and the male genders greater ability to deal with conflict.

    My feeling with this group, is that throughout history this group has been your tom-boys, and your effeminate men. My feeling is that when you read books from the past 100 years and you get countless steryotypical 'tom boy' girls - if they were born today, many would go down the 'trans' or 'non-binary' route.. and likewise many trans men would have been tom-boys or dykes/lesbians 30 years ago. There are quite a few feminists lesbians who are very open about this - watch interviews with them, and they honestly say that, had they been born today, they would have certainly been caught up in the trans wave... but as it happens they grew up as perfectly happy and healthy women.. just women that did not conform to a lot of their genders average traits.

    From my own experiance in the trans community - there are a surprising amount of de-transitioning that happens.. you don't always hear about it.. the trans community doesn't like to talk about it.. but there are a good number of individuals who stop the process, and go back to their initial gender. Most of them are in this second group - and are happier living as tom boys, or men who are just a bit feminine.. rather then pushing for a transition.

    Another peice of evidence for this group, is that when observed, it was found that the vast majority of very young boys who display female gender tendancies in their youth, grow up to become very happy and healthy gay men. They can still embrace their femininity, but they do not need to fully transition and have medical intervention to be happy. I have a feeling that the same would be true of tom-boy girls. But now we live in a time where parents are increasingly pushing medical intervention on their kids, and givingt hem the label 'trans' at such young ages.. and when you give someone a label, and say 'this is the answer to your problems - this explains why you are different' - its very easy to accept it.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)

    Segregated toiletes are such a none problem that I couldn't care if a woman decided to use the men's toiletes if her's were full. Or vice versa. Regardless of the existance of trans people.
    You know what triggers me so much. Segregated single stall toilets what the actual ****
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    (Original post by GUMI)
    This is all very subjective but I would say "feeling" like a girl/boy is inaccurate as "feeling" is extremely subjective. Since feeling comes from your brain (I mean nerves too but yeah...), if I isolated your brain and disregarded this notion of gender altogether, you wouldn't say you felt like a girl, you would still have your interests and personality, but it would be independent of gender. That imo is what feeling is.

    A better term I'd use is "identify", as identify denotes more about what it means socially to be a gender. If someone says I identify as a girl, you can very easily visualize an average girl (or at least what society would deem feminine) and say "ok well this man obviously sees he has more in common with this image of a girl than that of a boy." Also i use the term boy/girl and male/female very liberally so please ignore any inconsistencies with the two terms.
    Lots of sense in this post, but I wager a few people would disagree.

    Anyone can identify or have more in common with a social group, that doesn’t necessarily make them a member of said group. But then the definitions of what characterises said group is always up for discussion, there are individuals who are born girls but have more in common with boys and vice versa. Does that make them a boy? Who knows.

    (Original post by Dreamer20)
    wow you are a real cuckoo

    see a doctor
    I’m currently training to be one, how about you?
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