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    (Original post by jgupta)
    I do agree that obviously min.wage limits the low skilled jobs available, it is correcting the free market system as it seems "wrong" to us.
    If humans were perfect, we would have a completely free-market system, but we're not so we cannot have such a system (paraphrased from Hobbes on democracy).
    I agree with this sentiment.

    A complete free market would not only be unworkable but perhaps immoral too (in my opinion).

    What annoys me is the way left wing politicians simultaneously deploy the 'immigrants do the jobs we don't want' and the 'trade unions protect workers rights' arguments. These arguments are contradictory.

    People don't want to be cleaners etc. because it doesn't pay enough to make it worth their while.

    People wouldn't have wanted to work in coal mines if it didn't pay well. The reason it did pay well was because you had to be a member of a trade union to do it, effectively limiting the supply of labor.

    Now we have opened both these jobs to the free market and so we have Polish cleaners and import coal from Poland too.

    I think it's perverse the way left wingers, having been downright hostile to free markets on every other issue suddenly become economic libertarians on the single issue of immigration.
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    hmm thats an interesting observation.

    Moving slightly away from the original argument though, in the long run I believe lesser skilled / paid jobs will continue to replace humans with machines. Assembly line workers, for example, are gradually being replaced with robots / computers etc etc.

    *ideally* with the money being sent back to Polish families from the money polish immigrants earn here, it will lead to a better infrastructure for Poland -> better educated -> jobs / GDP / std. of living etc
    so immigration would be reduced, a few people may even choose to return to their families in the 'new poland'

    So as the number of unskilled jobs available is decreasing, the number of skilled jobs would be increasing (at the very least a natural rise) so the minimum level of skill / training required to enter the workforce would be increased (hence greater school leaving age & governments new focus on BTEC / vocational courses maybe?)

    bear in mind..its 1.00 and i'm tired so this may be a good idea or it may sound like an extract from a serial killer's diary in the morning. But right now it seems to make sense!
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    (Original post by jgupta)
    hmm thats an interesting observation.

    Moving slightly away from the original argument though, in the long run I believe lesser skilled / paid jobs will continue to replace humans with machines. Assembly line workers, for example, are gradually being replaced with robots / computers etc etc.

    *ideally* with the money being sent back to Polish families from the money polish immigrants earn here, it will lead to a better infrastructure for Poland -> better educated -> jobs / GDP / std. of living etc
    so immigration would be reduced, a few people may even choose to return to their families in the 'new Poland'

    So as the number of unskilled jobs available is decreasing, the number of skilled jobs would be increasing (at the very least a natural rise) so the minimum level of skill / training required to enter the workforce would be increased (hence greater school leaving age & governments new focus on BTEC / vocational courses maybe?)

    bear in mind..its 1.00 and I'm tired so this may be a good idea or it may sound like an extract from a serial killer's diary in the morning. But right now it seems to make sense!
    Yeah, its 1:30 so I'll make this my last post today. Sorry its taken so long to post - I'm trying to have 3 conversations at once so if I'm not making coherent sense that's my excuse!

    Most low skilled jobs are in the 'service sector' - e.g. truck drivers, street sweepers, bar staff (like me ) so advances in technology won't get rid of them.

    Poland probably will get wealthier as time goes by. They may even surpass us in wealth like the Rep. of Ireland. But there will always be somebody poorer than us somewhere.

    This means the equilibrium wage for these jobs will always be below what we think of as acceptable if we have a liberal immigration policy.

    I read an interesting article in the Sunday Times around Christmas time by a journalist who lost his job and had to take up working in a coffee bar. Basically, in between the rent on a bedsit, his food costs and his transport costs, he couldn't even afford a cup of the coffee he was serving! :eek:

    The idea that all the unemployed people in this country (or any country - we actually have quite low unemployment) are unemployed because they are simply too lazy to work as hard as Eastern Europeans is probably a bit of a generalization.

    Anyway, goodnight.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    I may have misunderstood your argument here. Are you trying to say that it can't represent public opinion because you think it's xenophobic, racist, etc.?
    Yeah, how can it, the whole site is full of a specific subset of like minded individuals, usually right-wing, conservative, BNP supporters.

    Hardly a diverse range of views.
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    (Original post by theinternetneverlies)
    Yeah, its 1:30 so I'll make this my last post today. Sorry its taken so long to post - I'm trying to have 3 conversations at once so if I'm not making coherent sense that's my excuse!

    Most low skilled jobs are in the 'service sector' - e.g. truck drivers, street sweepers, bar staff (like me ) so advances in technology won't get rid of them.

    Poland probably will get wealthier as time goes by. They may even surpass us in wealth like the Rep. of Ireland. But there will always be somebody poorer than us somewhere.

    This means the equilibrium wage for these jobs will always be below what we think of as acceptable if we have a liberal immigration policy.

    I read an interesting article in the Sunday Times around Christmas time by a journalist who lost his job and had to take up working in a coffee bar. Basically, in between the rent on a bedsit, his food costs and his transport costs, he couldn't even afford a cup of the coffee he was serving! :eek:

    The idea that all the unemployed people in this country (or any country - we actually have quite low unemployment) are unemployed because they are simply too lazy to work as hard as Eastern Europeans is probably a bit of a generalization.

    Anyway, goodnight.
    Assembly line / packers etc could all be replaced, things like that.
    In the end I guess it comes down to different levels of living standards...if either all countries were closed economies OR all people in the world had the same living standards / purchasing parity was roughly the same between countries, the same wage would be demanded..

    Obviously having closed country economies is in the past now, but perhaps in the...distant future, it will start "balancing out" - never to an exact equilibrium between countries, but so the differences are little greater than the differences you see in wealth within one country
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    (Original post by djhworld)
    Yeah, how can it, the whole site is full of a specific subset of like minded individuals, usually right-wing, conservative, BNP supporters.

    Hardly a diverse range of views.
    Therefore it cannot be representative?

    It wouldn't cross your mind that the country, as a whole, is fairly conservative and right leaning?
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    (Original post by Renal)
    Therefore it cannot be representative?

    It wouldn't cross your mind that the country, as a whole, is fairly conservative and right leaning?
    :confused: Then why are Labour in power? Dunring the 80s when the Conservatives were in power I immagine far-left views were spouted in the same way far right views are now. Swings and roundabouts.
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    I like the Have your say section...and i would vote for the far right, doesnt mean there all like me though. I know a lot of people who would/have voted for the BNP, and they arent all working class youths either!
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    HYS is a good place to have a laugh at the crap people there write. I have posted a few times when someone posts something idiotic about something I have experienced first hand.

    To explain HYS I think this should be consulted; John Gabriel's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory
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    (Original post by Higgy)
    I like the Have your say section...and i would vote for the far right, doesnt mean there all like me though. I know a lot of people who would/have voted for the BNP, and they arent all working class youths either!
    The leader of the BNP is a convicted Anti-Semite.

    I know people who live in an area with BNP councillors. Their only single coherent policy is to prevent the construction of more Mosques.

    Should people who want to prevent other people's freedom of expression be given freedom of expression themselves?

    Personally, I think they should so people can judge the racially-motivated policies of the BNP for what they really are. Can anybody give a reason for inhibiting freedom of speech for some greater good?
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    (Original post by theinternetneverlies)
    :confused: Then why are Labour in power? Dunring the 80s when the Conservatives were in power I immagine far-left views were spouted in the same way far right views are now. Swings and roundabouts.
    Perhaps.

    But to say that it can't be representative is clearly false, and dangerous.
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    (Original post by theinternetneverlies)
    The leader of the BNP is a convicted Anti-Semite.
    Convicted of anti-semitism? Really? :wtf?:
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    (Original post by theinternetneverlies)
    I know people who live in an area with BNP councillors. Their only single coherent policy is to prevent the construction of more Mosques.
    Sounds like a vote-winner to me.

    You forget that there are a large number of people in these areas who really don't want to see more mosques constructed.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    Convicted of anti-semitism? Really? :wtf?:
    Headline in the Guardian

    BNP leader is racist, shock horror!

    I don't want to see any more churches errected, two Cathedrals in one city is enough. And in my neck of the woods there's a rather nice Norman one in a castle so we're pretty covered thanks.
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    (Original post by theinternetneverlies)
    I know people who live in an area with BNP councillors. Their only single coherent policy is to prevent the construction of more Mosques.
    Good idea
 
 
 
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