Are the English disliked? Watch

naivesincerity
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#161
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#161
(Original post by L i b)
Are you thinking of some case in particular there?
Well there's many many other cases I'm sure, the one I heard was Morrissey being interrogated by the CIA for ****ging Bush. There was that guy in the Michael Moore film too. But like I say, I'm sure there are loads of cases.
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Lord Hysteria
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#162
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#162
(Original post by L i b)
To suggest the British Empire robbed the world of its culture and identity is absolutely ludicrous - if anything, the Empire robbed the UK of its native culture and brought in huge numbers of foreign influences.
Unless I am mistaken – language and religion are part of people’s culture?
And I don’t think the British Empire gave their ‘dominions’ (a phrase you use a lot) the flexibility or discretion in those two areas at least.
So when a foreign body comes along and completely changes the way of life – is it not the case that the culture and very identity turn to dust in their very own hands?

(Original post by L i b)
But yes, you cannot rob culture - culture is entirely fluid, it can never be grasped. What isn't invented and artificial is generally imposed.
If that is the narrow-minded approach you adopt to defining culture – then I beg why you say the “Empire robbed the UK of its native culture” – surely it works both ways?

(Original post by L i b)
What made the UK think it was superior? Well, we've discussed this already have we not? Good and just government, morality, law, a developed standard of living etc. I'm sure there's a theory which describes this: but we were the most powerful; some might argue that in itself demonstrates our superiority.

Quite probably, but it's lonely on top.
Good and just government – oh yes – very especially with their history of slavery.
The rest of the world have their own legal methods – since when was it acceptable to dismiss theirs and impose ours?
As for morality – as you said “it's just like any other nation's, full of things that we can classify as morally positive or negative” – sort of contradicting yourself (and sounds rather childish) to say we have morality.

(Original post by L i b)
Quite probably, but it's lonely on top.
That’s because other countries have a notion called respect – and even if they regard themselves are superior (in I am sure – you do – in every way possible) they still appreciate the fact that other people have their own values, traditions etc ... and that ought to be respected.

(Original post by L i b)
People always complain about their governments. If they're foreign, it simply adds the extra nationalist/racist dimension to things.

Over that period, I could name considerably greater issues brought about by the British Government in the UK - yet you're suggesting that one was legitimate and one was not? Why?
Hmm, I am sure the was more behind that question ... but the fact that you view foreigners who complain against this government as racists ... is pathetic.
Naturally, you have missed the point with regards to the Salt Act – it wasn’t about its legitimacy or authenticity but rather its morality???

(Original post by L i b)
I don't attempt anything of the sort. However you've already exposed your extremely daft biases. Britain's history is not remotely 'horrible' - it's just like any other nation's, full of things that we can classify as morally positive or negative.
Daft – you mean realistic , and I am not the biased one – I am merely showing you that British history has a great deal to play in the general dislike the English have. You are the one who appears to be living in a delusion that England has a lovely history.
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naivesincerity
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#163
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#163
(Original post by Blue Heart)


That’s because other countries have a notion called respect – and even if they regard themselves are superior (in I am sure – you do – in every way possible) they still appreciate the fact that other people have their own values, traditions etc ... and that ought to be respected.
How very naive. Why not just see human nature for what it is, and that anyone would have loved to have had the British position of the empire at the time, and would have done the same in it's shoes.
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Sidhe
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#164
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#164
(Original post by naivesincerity)
No learn what happens when the people in a country actually respect it instead of being uneducated about it and thinking it's a ****hole.
Er to be frank the English have always been self deprecating about England, and criticism is far more healthy than worship.

I don't really care what people say, I'm pretty sure that people love their country anyway. Criticism is part and parcel of being British. I don't really want to have the sort of blind faith in government, or the view that I am superior in my culture to the rest of the world. It's pointless, and just leads to discrimination. Give me healthy criticism any day. Not that I'm saying all Americans are like that, but those that are tend to make people wish they'd get a clue. Why are you so great for being born?
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naivesincerity
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#165
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#165
(Original post by Blue Heart)

Daft – you mean realistic , and I am not the biased one – I am merely showing you that British history has a great deal to play in the general dislike the English have. You are the one who appears to be living in a delusion that England has a lovely history.
England has done good and bad like most countries. Probably a damn sight more good than bad to be fair.
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naivesincerity
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#166
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#166
(Original post by Sidhe)
Er to be frank the English have always been self deprecating about England, and criticism is far more healthy than worship.

I don't really care what people say, I'm pretty sure that people love their country anyway. Criticism is part and parcel of being British. I don't really want to have the sort of blind faith in government, or the view that I am superior in my culture to the rest of the world. It's pointless, and just leads to discrimination. Give me healthy criticism any day. Not that I'm saying all Americans are like that, but those that are tend to make people wish they'd get a clue. Why are you so great for being born?
Americans at least know about the good aspects of their country. Most new generation Brits haven't even heard of the empire.
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Davetherave
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#167
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#167
(Original post by Blue Heart)

Although we may disagree, your last comment was quite funny and made me laugh.
Glad to hear it.
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L i b
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#168
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#168
(Original post by Blue Heart)
Unless I am mistaken – language and religion are part of people’s culture?
Hmm... language probably more than religion. Religion has cultural elements to it, but is not inherently cultural.

And I don’t think the British Empire gave their ‘dominions’ (a phrase you use a lot) the flexibility or discretion in those two areas at least.
I think you'd do well to learn what a dominion actually is. The dominions are self governing independent states, equal to the UK officially since the Statute of Westminster in 1931. The British Empire didn't 'give' these areas anything.

So when a foreign body comes along and completely changes the way of life – is it not the case that the culture and very identity turn to dust in their very own hands?
Not really, because culture always has been dust in the sense you describe. As I said last time, it cannot be grasped, it is fluid (or, in your analogy, dusty).

If that is the narrow-minded approach you adopt to defining culture – then I beg why you say the “Empire robbed the UK of its native culture” – surely it works both ways?
I suggested it would be more justifiable to say that, I didn't say it was my personal view.

Good and just government – oh yes – very especially with their history of slavery.
The UK has an excellent history on the slavery front. We were one of the first nations to outlaw the slave trade, and devoted massive funds to patrolling that for little obvious benefit.

The rest of the world have their own legal methods – since when was it acceptable to dismiss theirs and impose ours?
Since ours became superior. Anyway, I think you rather glamorise many former British colonies to suggest they had the rule of law and a developed legal structure before the British. In most, it was at best feudal, 'do what we tell you, or I'll hit you with my stick' stuff.

That’s because other countries have a notion called respect – and even if they regard themselves are superior (in I am sure – you do – in every way possible) they still appreciate the fact that other people have their own values, traditions etc ... and that ought to be respected.
Load of **** they do. Every country on earth came about by violence and conflict.

Anyway, this notion that the British administrations abroad gave a crap about culture or attempted to Britannify the local populations is simply a complete falsehood.

Naturally, you have missed the point with regards to the Salt Act – it wasn’t about its legitimacy or authenticity but rather its morality???
Why? I don't see it as any more immoral than any other tax.

Daft – you mean realistic , and I am not the biased one – I am merely showing you that British history has a great deal to play in the general dislike the English have. You are the one who appears to be living in a delusion that England has a lovely history.
Let's reflect upon this - you say England's history is 'horrible', I deem it as (like any country's) a mixed bag. See the rather obvious bias here?
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Lord Hysteria
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#169
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#169
(Original post by naivesincerity)
How very naive. Why not just see human nature for what it is, and that anyone would have loved to have had the British position of the empire at the time, and would have done the same in it's shoes.
Well... It is a bit unfortunate that there hasn’t been a great deal of Empires, like the Portuguese Empire.
But I suppose, as you said, it is human nature – part of the survival-of-the-fittest idea which in this case extends to who has more power.

Yes – I agree on that ground – that it could be down to human nature to want to grasp control – so it could provide some justification to the British colonisation.
In any case, I appear to be delving into the British murky past – and I am trying to think of some really morally sound judgements that have earned England a decent image. Could you think of a few?
I am not an anti-establishment, in fact I quite like it to some extent, but rather get annoyed when people paint an untrue image of British history.
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Sidhe
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#170
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#170
(Original post by naivesincerity)
Americans at least know about the good aspects of their country. Most new generation Brits haven't even heard of the empire.
I had to break it to you but the empire is dead. Why would people want to dwell on the past? Most people learn about empire in history, that's all they need to know really. Just because people complain doesn't mean they hate their country. I've had this discussion before, if you asked people do they love England you get truck loads of people saying of course. But these are the same people who complain, if you didn't care you wouldn't bother. Caring about your country enough to criticise it and loving it are not mutually exclusive. There is nothing wrong with admiring your culture, but when that turns into criticising others for not being so wonderful, then you start to see the seeds of nationalism. Especially when you take criticism very poorly, over exaggerate your merits, and have little or no consideration for the rest of the world; I'd much rather healthy criticism, much.
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naivesincerity
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#171
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#171
(Original post by Sidhe)
I had to break it to you but the empire is dead. Why would people want to dwell on the past? Most people learn about empire in history, that's all they need to know really. Just because people complain doesn't mean they hate their country. I've had this discussion before. If you asked people do they love England you get truck loads of people saying of course. But these are the same people who complain, if you didn't care you wouldn't bother. Caring about your country and loving it are not mutually exclusive. There is nothing wrong with admiring your culture, but when that turns into criticising others for not being so wonderful, then you start to see the seeds of nationalism. Especially when you take criticism very poorly, over exaggerate your merits, and have little or no consideration for the rest of the world, that's when nationalism creeps in, much rather healthy criticism, much.
Health criticism is one thing yeah agreed. But when there just seems to be no sense of respect for the place like there is in the US, then I think we could have lessons to learn from them.
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Sidhe
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#172
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#172
(Original post by naivesincerity)
Health criticism is one thing yeah agreed. But when there just seems to be no sense of respect for the place like there is in the US, then I think we could have lessons to learn from them.
Well we have lessons to learn from all cultures, the US has many good points. It's just it's best to be careful about who exactly your admiring and why. But we are essentially not really in disagreement.
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naivesincerity
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#173
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#173
(Original post by Blue Heart)
In any case, I appear to be delving into the British murky past – and I am trying to think of some really morally sound judgements that have earned England a decent image. Could you think of a few?
.
Well, abolition of slavery? Fighting the Nazis? Human rights? Gay rights?
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naivesincerity
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#174
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#174
(Original post by Sidhe)
Well we have lessons to learn from all cultures, the US has many good points. It's just it's best to be careful about who exactly your admiring and why. But we are essentially not really in disagreement.
You can criticise you country, try to improve it, love it and believe in it...you say that's how Brits are but I'm not convinced. I think there's actually much less respect for their own country than in Americans, that's all. (In newer generations)
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Sidhe
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#175
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#175
(Original post by naivesincerity)
You can criticise you country, try to improve it, love it and believe in it...you say that's how Brits are but I'm not convinced. I think there's actually much less respect for their own country than in Americans, that's all. (In newer generations)
Perhaps, but the younger generation being disenfranchised with their country or government is hardly new. That's default, remember mods & rockers and the punks? It's always been like that. Perhaps your mistaking the rebelliousness of youth for a genuine disdain for all things English? I don't think it's actually changed that much. People might be more vocal but then the government is not popular atm, and rightly so, it has not listened to the people; a touch more than the norm on the moaning front is hardly surprising.
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naivesincerity
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#176
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#176
(Original post by Sidhe)
Perhaps, but the younger generation being disenfranchised with their country or government is hardly new. That's default, remember mods & rockers and the punks? It's always been like that. Perhaps your mistaking the rebelliousness of youth for a genuine disdain for all things English? I don't think it's actually changed that much. People might be more vocal but then the government is not popular atm, and rightly so, it has not listened to the people, a touch more than the norm on the moaning front is hardly surprising.
Good points, will think about it.
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Lord Hysteria
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#177
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#177
(Original post by L i b)
The UK has an excellent history on the slavery front. We were one of the first nations to outlaw the slave trade, and devoted massive funds to patrolling that for little obvious benefit.
Yes ... but slavery started in the 16-17th Century ... the Abolition of Slavery Act came in the 1830s ...

(Original post by L i b)
In most, it was at best feudal, 'do what we tell you, or I'll hit you with my stick' stuff.
Oh dear ... no comment.

(Original post by L i b)
Anyway, this notion that the British administrations abroad gave a crap about culture or attempted to Britannify the local populations is simply a complete falsehood.
I presume you have an example ... but honestly, it makes no difference as you say “British administrations abroad gave a crap about culture ... is simply a complete falsehood” – enough said

(Original post by L i b)
Let's reflect upon this - you say England's history is 'horrible', I deem it as (like any country's) a mixed bag. See the rather obvious bias here?
I am not biased. Again – I am trying to balance your views about England’s history
But as it is a mixed bag – care to give me an instance which has earned England a honourable status.
FYI – I am English and have nothing against my government. So don’t go down the ‘foreigner ... complaining” path.
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Lord Hysteria
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#178
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#178
(Original post by naivesincerity)
Well, abolition of slavery? Fighting the Nazis? Human rights? Gay rights?
hmm ... but ok - but they are quite modern though ...
Fighting the Nazis ... ok ...
Abolition of Slavery needed a petition though -- then again we were the first ... so hmm ...
Gay rights & Human right ... great improvement - well ... actually I will give the UK a lot of credit here as it has gone beyond the call-of-duty, as it were.
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naivesincerity
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#179
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(Original post by Blue Heart)
hmm ... but ok - but they are quite modern though ...
Fighting the Nazis ... ok ...
Abolition of Slavery needed a petition though -- then again we were the first ... so hmm ...
Gay rights & Human right ... great improvement - well ... actually I will give the UK a lot of credit here as it has gone beyond the call-of-duty, as it were.
Anti-racism?
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L i b
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#180
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#180
(Original post by Blue Heart)
Yes ... but slavery started in the 16-17th Century ... the Abolition of Slavery Act came in the 1830s ...
Sorry, slavery started in the 16th century? Please tell me then, why did an essay I submitted recently discuss the position of slaves in the Roman Empire? *bashes head off desk*

Oh dear ... no comment.
Why not? You've usually got an ill thought-out comment for every occasion?

I presume you have an example ... but honestly, it makes no difference as you say “British administrations abroad gave a crap about culture ... is simply a complete falsehood” – enough said
An example of someone not doing something?

I think the fact that not only do native cultures exist and thrive in most of our ex-colonies, but that we have also adopted and absorbed a number of these cultures over where, stands as very potent testament to this fact. Please, if you can, show me a country where native peoples have become just like Britons? Show me an African country where the people wear bowler hats and drink warm beer in village pubs.

Anyway, it's impossible to impose a culture on people without their co-operation. The elements of our culture that were absorbed - cricket seems like a nice example - remain, and with good reason: because they are positive. And of course it's not like the British Government had some policy in the 19th century of teaching Johnny Foreigner to play cricket...

I am not biased. Again – I am trying to balance your views about England’s history
By making ridiculous blanket statements? That's not balance.

But as it is a mixed bag – care to give me an instance which has earned England a honourable status.
Banning the slave trade? Liberating the Nazi death camps and standing up against fascism? Preventing sati? Outlawing untouchability?

FYI – I am English and have nothing against my government. So don’t go down the ‘foreigner ... complaining” path.
Er... why would I? I would naturally have assumed you were English - your flag and location do come up on TSR...

Perhaps you are simply being disingenuous and trying to portray me as some sort of racist? Kindly don't lower the tone to that level.
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