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    (Original post by MrMatthewJamesEyre)
    Well St Andrews day is officially a bank holiday, as of 2006 following an act by the Scottish Parliament.
    The nature of bank holidays in Scotland is different. In effect, St Andrew's Day is an optional holiday that basically nobody takes.
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    (Original post by Gaylei)
    I think they have seen what the americans do, decided they wanted it and are now trying to make a circle fit in to a square.
    I remind you that, as with most American culture, oaths and affirmations of this sort are simply a subset of historic British culture. We used to go mad for oaths to the monarch.

    Great religious conflicts grew up around oaths of allegiance, there were massacres over situations where an oath was given a few days late.

    god save the queen.... from what?
    What do you think? Maybe try reading the lyrics...

    what happenes when its king, god save the king? we will just change the words to fit how we like? circle in to square.....
    Um, the song was written as God Save the King and has existed as that for most of history.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    What do you think? Maybe try reading the lyrics...
    "No future! No future!"

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    Think it's safe to say I'm vehmently against this....
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    Personally, this makes me a bit itchy. Another attempt by Gordon Brown to promote "Britishness" in a way that is getting a bit Big Brother now. Is he trying to make us all into these good, nice citizens who love our country and would think our government is absolutely smashing?

    I have no problem with the royal family/symbolism of the Queen but come on, we're British - we don't "swear allegiance" to anyone. I wish he'd stick to the things we "elected" Labour to do like sorting out the shambles of an economy we have at the moment rather than silly and worryingly tyrannical ideas like this.
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    (Original post by jomo)
    Personally, this makes me a bit itchy. Another attempt by Gordon Brown to promote "Britishness" in a way that is getting a bit Big Brother now. Is he trying to make us all into these good, nice citizens who love our country and would think our government is absolutely smashing?
    Well, people say the decline of patriotism, a sense of community and a coherent understanding of Britishness is negative.

    I have no problem with the royal family/symbolism of the Queen but come on, we're British - we don't "swear allegiance" to anyone.
    Even in terms of recent history I'd say that's wrong. I'd say oaths and declarations of allegiance are very significant parts of being British.
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    I wouldn't mind swearing allegiance to the country and people; which obviously includes the Queen, but I do not believe she is above the average individual and should not be treated so. The days of having an oath sworn to you just for being born should be long gone in our society.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    I'd far rather swear allegiance to the Queen than some abstract of the country. There's no reason for me to be particularly loyal to the UK; however at least the Queen has sworn an oath towards me as well. It's a reciprocal agreement.
    I would rather swear allegiance to our country and not to an individual. Regardless of what that individual's oath is. I would like to add that it doesn't mean I'm any less proud of our nation. I'm truly proud of our democracy and believe it is worth being loyal to.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Well, people say the decline of patriotism, a sense of community and a coherent understanding of Britishness is negative.

    Even in terms of recent history I'd say that's wrong. I'd say oaths and declarations of allegiance are very significant parts of being British.
    I agree, a sense of community is something that is missing from society today but I don't really see how saying a bunch of pretty words - which let's face it, for Gordon is just a way of making a verbally binding social contract with your country to stop young teenagers from behaving badly - is going to improve that. I'd rather people made an "oath of allegiance" to their conscience than their Queen.

    And I have to ask because this is beginning to annoy me - what an earth is Britishness? Do we have a dictionary definition? Or is the government still working on creating one for us?
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    (Original post by jomo)
    And I have to ask because this is beginning to annoy me - what an earth is Britishness? Do we have a dictionary definition? Or is the government still working on creating one for us?
    You see, all this has been rather obscure to me. I've never questioned for a second what Britishness means to me and, to be fair, I think it's a lot more definable than most other national identities.

    It's certainly got nothing to do with the present government.
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    (Original post by jomo)
    And I have to ask because this is beginning to annoy me - what an earth is Britishness? Do we have a dictionary definition? Or is the government still working on creating one for us?
    Go abroad then talk loudly and slowly to be understood? If you fail, repeat louder and slower :confused:
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    I'd never do it.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I wouldn't mind swearing allegiance to the country and people; which obviously includes the Queen, but I do not believe she is above the average individual and should not be treated so. The days of having an oath sworn to you just for being born should be long gone in our society.
    But I don't think the individual has any loyalty to ther other people or this abstract concept of 'the country'. The Queen on the other hand promises to serve every individual equally and, as such, I think it's fair enough to pledge to assist her in that for so long as she honours her oath.

    Elizabeth Windsor doesn't really matter much to the scheme of things, you're swearing allegiance to the ideals represented in the functions of the Sovereign. The one who wears the Crown is simply the administrator of those functions and a focus for unity.
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    seems like silly and pointless jingoism to me
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    (Original post by L i b)
    But I don't think the individual has any loyalty to ther other people or this abstract concept of 'the country'. The Queen on the other hand promises to serve every individual equally and, as such, I think it's fair enough to pledge to assist her in that for so long as she honours her oath.

    Elizabeth Windsor doesn't really matter much to the scheme of things, you're swearing allegiance to the ideals represented in the functions of the Sovereign. The one who wears the Crown is simply the administrator of those functions and a focus for unity.
    Do you not think the flag would be a better thing to swear allegiance to? At least that's something everybody can agree on.
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    Absoloutly not. I have never and would never swear allegience to the royal family.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Do you not think the flag would be a better thing to swear allegiance to? At least that's something everybody can agree on.
    too American

    the whole concept of forcing kids to swear allegiance to anything just smacks of that distasteful kind of patriotism to me.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Do you not think the flag would be a better thing to swear allegiance to? At least that's something everybody can agree on.
    It's a bit of fabric, what's the point?

    I don't think anyone really pledges allegiance to flags as such, most such displays are simply pledging allegiance to a country and using a flag as a symbol - which more or less comes under the other issues I raised regarding that.

    How about we swear allegiance to the EU? That'd be interesting.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's a bit of fabric, what's the point?
    It's a lady that does nothing and could have just as easily been born into my position, whats the point?
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    hahaha.

    no
 
 
 
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