Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist' Watch

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Adorno
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#3761
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#3761
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
I know I have my moments but this is hardly, er, parliamentary behaviour.
They're quite mild though Mr Smith and I do think you have a tendancy, like a certain ex Tory - Lib Dem of which we have mutual internet acquaintance, to egg people on seeking that kind of a rise and then running and telling teacher. It doesn't do your position - i.e. seeking the moral highground - any favours to run in here going "he swore". If you see what I mean?
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username202682
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#3762
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#3762
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
When asked if more people doing degrees devalues the degree itself:
I don't regard that as the point that is being asserted though. Its the right to accessibly that we have an issue with. And why shouldn't adults have access to University? They should. Whether its 40% or 100% that get a degree, is not entirely the issue - But rather what percentage have access to this option.
Norfolkadam
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#3763
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#3763
(Original post by Adorno)
They're quite mild though Mr Smith and I do think you have a tendancy, like a certain ex Tory - Lib Dem of which we have mutual internet acquaintance, to egg people on seeking that kind of a rise and then running and telling teacher. It doesn't do your position - i.e. seeking the moral highground - any favours to run in here going "he swore". If you see what I mean?
These weren't in reply to me. I don't know which Tory-Lib Dem you're talking about either.

(Original post by Stricof)
I don't regard that as the point that is being asserted though. Its the right to accessibly that we have an issue with. And why shouldn't adults have access to University? They should. Whether its 40% or 100% that get a degree, is not entirely the issue - But rather what percentage have access to this option.
Why do you think the % of people who have access to a degree will drop if tuition fees rise?
Adorno
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#3764
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#3764
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
These weren't in reply to me. I don't know which Tory-Lib Dem you're talking about either.
Oh, well then that makes it worse! Low ... Son.
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Norfolkadam
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#3765
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#3765
(Original post by Adorno)
Oh, well then that makes it worse! Low ... Son.
a. Why haven't you gone? / Why are you back?
b. I didn't say those things. I like picking up SFB when he's done wrong. Call it a hobby.
username202682
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#3766
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#3766
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
Why do you think the % of people who have access to a degree will drop if tuition fees rise?
Do I really need to answer this for you?
Norfolkadam
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#3767
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#3767
(Original post by Stricof)
Do I really need to answer this for you?
You absolutely do. Access to education won't be affected at all as far as I can see it.
Adorno
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#3768
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#3768
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
a. Why haven't you gone? / Why are you back?
It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere, I'm all alone ... more or less. I'm just bored so I'm New Labour baiting ... as can be seen in my engagements above.

b. I didn't say those things. I like picking up SFB when he's done wrong. Call it a hobby.
I know, but there's a time and a place and I don't think this is it. You don't play football in the bath do you!
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Norfolkadam
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#3769
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#3769
(Original post by Adorno)
It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere, I'm all alone ... more or less. I'm just bored so I'm New Labour baiting ... as can be seen in my engagements above.



I know, but there's a time and a place and I don't think this is it. You don't play football in the bath do you!
Where is the time and place? TSR Politics is so tame compared to RL politics. I don't get to smear and be smarmy nearly enough. :P
username202682
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#3770
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#3770
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
You absolutely do. Access to education won't be affected at all as far as I can see it.
And what makes tertiary education any less different than the other levels? Or do I assume you do not support total access to education in its entirety?
Adorno
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#3771
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#3771
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
Where is the time and place? TSR Politics is so tame compared to RL politics. I don't get to smear and be smarmy nearly enough. :P
Somewhere more prominent sometime around 1 - 2 am since chances are you're drunk, they're drunk, or the mods are drunk and it's therefore easier to be engaged in smear tactics. Not that, as a Libertarian, anyone takes you seriously :p: How's the bookshop going?
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Norfolkadam
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#3772
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#3772
(Original post by Stricof)
And what makes tertiary education any less different than the other levels? Or do I assume you do not support total access to education in its entirety?
This is not what we were discussing. You were going to tell me how the tuition fee increases limit access to education.
Norfolkadam
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#3773
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#3773
(Original post by Adorno)
Somewhere more prominent sometime around 1 - 2 am since chances are you're drunk, they're drunk, or the mods are drunk and it's therefore easier to be engaged in smear tactics. Not that, as a Libertarian, anyone takes you seriously :p: How's the bookshop going?
I'll bear this in mind. The bookshop is going very well, in that I work in one. Even if it's not mine. :holmes: Still, I will open my own one some day. :moon:
username202682
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#3774
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#3774
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
This is not what we were discussing. You were going to tell me how the tuition fee increases limit access to education.
Its precisely what I'm aiming at. Do you think that tuition fees should apply to an entire nation of primary schools and above, like the current private schools? Because its the same principle.
Norfolkadam
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#3775
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#3775
(Original post by Stricof)
Its precisely what I'm aiming at. Do you think that tuition fees should apply to an entire nation, like the current private schools? Because its the same principle.
No I think tuition fees should apply to University. You have to draw the line somewhere and that line, I feel, should be drawn at 16 for free, compulsory education and 18 for free education.

I just want to know why you feel that tuition fee increases will reduce access to higher education.
SciFiRory
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#3776
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#3776
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
When asked if there was an element of self-interest in supporting lower tuition fees as a student:


When asked if more people doing degrees devalues the degree itself:


I just thought you might want to know how your members have been behaving. I know I have my moments but this is hardly, er, parliamentary behaviour.
oh no, I swore, get over it, have you ever been to the real world? people here swear alot y'know...

im neither the first, nor will I be the last person on TSR to get angry when debating or swear
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username202682
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#3777
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#3777
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
I just want to know why you feel that tuition fee increases will reduce access to higher education.
You miss the point again. The basis of free education is the same as that of free healthcare - Firstly, that such a service should be comprehensive, catering to the needs of all students, combined with the best educational facilities available. Secondly, that the service should be free to the public at the point of use. And therefore we follow this assertion of From cradle to grave because without such welfare, working class students would be priced out. It doesn't matter whether you argue that they don't have to pay it back until they earn a certain level of income - the underlying issue is that when face with the rise in cost, faced up against the opportunity cost, will not pick university. And yes - make it a voluntary choice if you wish to pull that assertion. But the opportunity cost of earning versus a degree that they are not sure whether they will be able to afford - in addition to living constraints and other preoccupations - this would would cause students, especially from such backgrounds to believe, and rationally, that university has been priced out to them.
Norfolkadam
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#3778
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#3778
(Original post by Stricof)
You miss the point again. The basis of free education is the same as that of free healthcare - Firstly, that such a service should be comprehensive, catering to the needs of all students, combined with the best educational facilities available. Secondly, that the service should be free to the public at the point of use. And therefore we follow this assertion of From cradle to grave because without such welfare, working class students would be priced out. It doesn't matter whether you argue that they don't have to pay it back until they earn a certain level of income - the underlying issue is that when face with the rise in cost, faced up against the opportunity cost, will not pick university. And yes - make it a voluntary choice if you wish to pull that assertion. But the opportunity cost of earning versus a degree that they are not sure whether they will be able to afford - in addition to living constraints and other preoccupations - this would would cause students, especially from such backgrounds to believe, and rationally, that university has been priced out to them.
Even the NHS only goes up to a point. Cosmetic surgery, physiotherapy and other treatments aren't covered by the NHS. Even with these tuition fee rises higher education will still be free at the point of access. I come from a working-class family; both of my sisters are going to University after the fee increases but they haven't even really considered them because they will be fully covered by loans and grants. The choice between University and work is as open to them now as it has ever been.
username202682
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#3779
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#3779
(Original post by Norfolkadam)
Even the NHS only goes up to a point. Cosmetic surgery, physiotherapy and other treatments aren't covered by the NHS. Even with these tuition fee rises higher education will still be free at the point of access. I come from a working-class family; both of my sisters are going to University after the fee increases but they haven't even really considered them because they will be fully covered by loans and grants. The choice between University and work is as open to them now as it has ever been.
Oh please. Using personal and frankly superfluous examples does not give the right to denote a generalisation about the mode on how working and lower middle class students see this rise in fees.
Norfolkadam
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#3780
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#3780
(Original post by Stricof)
Oh please. Using personal and frankly superfluous examples does not give the right to denote a generalisation about the mode of how working and lower middle class students see this rise in fees.
But the whole argument against fee rises seems to be that it will discourage working-class students from University. I'm just giving you an example that says otherwise. We won't know how this affects lower/middle-class uptake until it happens but there's been an increase in lower/middle-class uptake since the initial introduction of tuition fees. You didn't actually rebuke any of my points, you just picked a small hole in my argument.
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