Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist' Watch

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davireland
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#481
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#481
You can never achieve equality as human beings are not all the same, some are more suited to business or politics than others so there will always be a group of more wealthy or more powerful human beings no matter what the system (e.g. Communist Russia to take a Communist example). A system which considers equality as its driving force surely by nature ignores the unique talents which make people great and through ignoring this you are putting society at a disadvantage, it would not be a society of talents but simply a society of generalisation. So why bother with the principle of total equality?
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oriel historian
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#482
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#482
(Original post by davireland)
You can never achieve equality as human beings are not all the same, some are more suited to business or politics than others so there will always be a group of more wealthy or more powerful human beings no matter what the system (e.g. Communist Russia to take a Communist example). A system which considers equality as its driving force surely by nature ignores the unique talents which make people great and through ignoring this you are putting society at a disadvantage, it would not be a society of talents but simply a society of generalisation. So why bother with the principle of total equality?
Human beings may not be the same in terms of economic standing, opportunities for education, and in terms of their interests and general likes and dislikes that is true; however. I do not agree that we should perpetuate a social construction like race - which is based on flawed principles - for the sake of then achieving equality in spite of the apparent "divisions". I'd rather treat all human beings whether they have pasty white skin or whether they have really dark skin and every colour grade in between (including bright orange) as human beings. In that most simple of things, we are all equal.
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davireland
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#483
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#483
I wasnt talking about racial backgrounds because in that aspect, race should not make a difference to how someone is treated. I was talking about personalities, talents & skills these are things which are all different from person to person, you cannot create a society based on equality when variation in these things are so vast. It is naive to think that the whole of society can be equal when there is so much variation.
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oriel historian
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#484
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#484
(Original post by davireland)
I wasnt talking about racial backgrounds because in that aspect, race should not make a difference to how someone is treated. I was talking about personalities, talents & skills these are things which are all different from person to person, you cannot create a society based on equality when variation in these things are so vast. It is naive to think that the whole of society can be equal when there is so much variation.
I've never said or suggested that there aren't inherent differences in personalities. Indeed I even said that in the quote you've highlighted. There are other circumstances that can be equalised and it is those that we should strive to alter not flap about saying person A is more intelligent than person B so the entire of society cannot be equal in terms of chance, a certain standard of life expectancy and living standard, etc etc etc. At the moment, however, our society, as much as any other, exhibits a fundamentally unequal structure.

But anyway, I'm naive and I don't know what I'm talking about. Nice to see the Tories are no longer above personal attacks.
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UniOfLife
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#485
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#485
(Original post by oriel historian)
But anyway, I'm naive and I don't know what I'm talking about. Nice to see the Tories are no longer above personal attacks.
I don't think that was intended as a personal slight.
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davireland
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#486
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#486
(Original post by oriel historian)
But anyway, I'm naive and I don't know what I'm talking about. Nice to see the Tories are no longer above personal attacks.
Oriel, I like you and it wasnt meant as a personal attack, it was meant as a certain naivity in the communist idea that everyone should be equal and then thinking that this could work in a society, which it never can.
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oriel historian
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#487
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#487
(Original post by UniOfLife)
I don't think that was intended as a personal slight.
(Original post by daveireland)
Oriel, I like you and it wasnt meant as a personal attack, it was meant as a certain naivity in the communist idea that everyone should be equal and then thinking that this could work in a society, which it never can.
Aww come on guys, play along mun. I was injecting a bit of the old banter into our rather staid House of Commons at the moment.

Apologies if that backfired...
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UniOfLife
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#488
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#488
(Original post by oriel historian)
Aww come on guys, play along mun. I was injecting a bit of the old banter into our rather staid House of Commons at the moment.

Apologies if that backfired...
Oh, sorry, you good for nothing scrounging Commie :p:
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davireland
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#489
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#489
(Original post by oriel historian)
Aww come on guys, play along mun. I was injecting a bit of the old banter into our rather staid House of Commons at the moment.

Apologies if that backfired...
We could just wait for Grape aka 'The Tory Hater' to arrive. :p:
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oriel historian
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#490
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#490
(Original post by UniOfLife)
Oh, sorry, you good for nothing scrounging Commie :p:
That's more like it, capitalist pigs. Now, who's for bringing down the government? Revolution...anyone?
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davireland
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#491
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#491
(Original post by oriel historian)
That's more like it, capitalist pigs. Now, who's for bringing down the government? Revolution...anyone?
"The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution."
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oriel historian
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#492
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#492
(Original post by davireland)
"The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution."
Unlikely, considering I am fairly certain the next government on TSR will be a Conservative one. I'm pretty sure to rebel against that too...
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davireland
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#493
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#493
(Original post by oriel historian)
Unlikely, considering I am fairly certain the next government on TSR will be a Conservative one. I'm pretty sure to rebel against that too...
If you cant beat us , join us :p:
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ukebert
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#494
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#494
(Original post by davireland)
You can never achieve equality as human beings are not all the same, some are more suited to business or politics than others so there will always be a group of more wealthy or more powerful human beings no matter what the system (e.g. Communist Russia to take a Communist example). A system which considers equality as its driving force surely by nature ignores the unique talents which make people great and through ignoring this you are putting society at a disadvantage, it would not be a society of talents but simply a society of generalisation. So why bother with the principle of total equality?
Equality is very easy to misuse. Don't think that we're saying, like in Maoist China I believe, that people with no sense for business (like me), with little intelligence and zero training are equal to businessmen in terms of running a corporation. We accept that people are different and are suitable for different roles, most of which are very important in Society, although perhaps not equal (compare the refuse worker with the CEO, it's obvious which one is more important). We're not even arguing for equal pay (well I am, but let's pretend for the moment that I'm not).

So what are we arguing for? It boils down to equality of opportunity. The state in which no matter who your parents were, no matter what your background, you have the same opportunity of primarily health and education as anybody else. This, as I understand it, is our principle deviance from the Libertarian point of view. Some of our views are actually quite similar, at least in theory. We are against big government, unnecessary taxes, too many regulations, unacceptable restrictions of freedoms. It's just the our definitions are a little different to other people's :p:

There's something else that I wanted to say that ties together all of the above, but I now can't remember what it was :o:
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oriel historian
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#495
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#495
(Original post by ukebert)
So what are we arguing for? It boils down to equality of opportunity. The state in which no matter who your parents were, no matter what your background, you have the same opportunity of primarily health and education as anybody else. This, as I understand it, is our principle deviance from the Libertarian point of view. Some of our views are actually quite similar, at least in theory. We are against big government, unnecessary taxes, too many regulations, unacceptable restrictions of freedoms. It's just the our definitions are a little different to other people's :p:
:
Not entirely against big government Uke. After all we do believe in government intervention to create the circumstances in which that equal state can form.
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ukebert
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#496
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#496
(Original post by oriel historian)
Not entirely against big government Uke. After all we do believe in government intervention to create the circumstances in which that equal state can form.
That was why I said that our definition of "Big Government" is different from anybody else :p:

A more coherent statement is that we believe in as much as is necessary and not (much) more.
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UniOfLife
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#497
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#497
(Original post by ukebert)
That was why I said that our definition of "Big Government" is different from anybody else :p:

A more coherent statement is that we believe in as much as is necessary and not (much) more.
That's no different to anyone else - everyone believes in "as much as is necessary" just some think more is necessary than others.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't striving for "equality of opportunity" a relatively recent thing whereas earlier in the second half of last century people (well those on the left) were mainly striving for "equality of outcome"?
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ukebert
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#498
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#498
(Original post by UniOfLife)
That's no different to anyone else - everyone believes in "as much as is necessary" just some think more is necessary than others.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't striving for "equality of opportunity" a relatively recent thing whereas earlier in the second half of last century people (well those on the left) were mainly striving for "equality of outcome"?
yes, but our definition of "as is necessary" is different. That's what I meant anyway. If it isn't clear then I'm tired. My age-old excuse for doing stupid things.

Equality of outcome is impractical in it's literal interpretation in many ways. Most of the practical ones can be boiled down to eq of op anyway, with a bit of imagination. Equality of opportunity is a lot better. Never say that Socialists are stuck in the past :p:
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UniOfLife
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#499
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#499
(Original post by ukebert)
Equality of outcome is impractical in it's literal interpretation in many ways. Most of the practical ones can be boiled down to eq of op anyway, with a bit of imagination. Equality of opportunity is a lot better. Never say that Socialists are stuck in the past :p:
I'll take that as a "yes" then
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ukebert
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#500
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#500
(Original post by UniOfLife)
I'll take that as a "yes" then
If you wish
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