Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist' Watch

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cBay
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#6441
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#6441
(Original post by jape)
Why did the West win the Cold War? And why do you only get death camps and gulags and Ministries of Love in socialist havens, or other such places where people place the "rights" of a particular group above the rights of individuals (as your philosophy necessitates)
This is because 'socialist' states tend to have been ruled by dictators. It is hardly something unique to socialism that where you have a dictator, any political dissent is quashed. Socialism is built on the idea that everybody is born equal and therefore power and opportunity should be shared equally. Having a dictatorship or a ruling class goes against that fundamental principle of socialism, and therefore a country can only truly be socialist if it is a proper democracy that puts power in the hands of the people and protects the rights of its minorities. Socialism isn't about placing the rights of the group over the individual, but about ensuring the rights of everybody (every single individual in that group).
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cBay
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#6442
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#6442
(Original post by FemaleBo55)
Do you think socialism could work in England and why?? :eek:
Yes socialism (and there a lots of different types of socialism) could be work anywhere if implemented properly. The issue is that too often we have seen it implemented haphazardly by authoritarian tyrant ****heads.
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CJTWhite
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#6443
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#6443
(Original post by cBay)
Yes socialism (and there a lots of different types of socialism) could be work anywhere if implemented properly. The issue is that too often we have seen it implemented haphazardly by authoritarian tyrant ****heads.
So why then do you propose that we keep trying to implement something which has never not ended in authoritarianism or massive economic decline? Why should we trust a system that has failed time and time again?

If you are so averse to authoritarian leaders, why encourage a system which has produced the most authoritarian leaders?
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TheDefiniteArticle
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#6444
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#6444
(Original post by Chaz W)
So why then do you propose that we keep trying to implement something which has never not ended in authoritarianism or massive economic decline? Why should we trust a system that has failed time and time again?

If you are so averse to authoritarian leaders, why encourage a system which has produced the most authoritarian leaders?
"Capitalism works and socialism doesn't"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
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CJTWhite
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#6445
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#6445
(Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
"Capitalism works and socialism doesn't"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
My views are not overly optimistic, so it's not really survivorship bias, is it? I simply observe that capitalism has produced less authoritarian governments than socialism and I want to know why, given someone is averse to authoritarianism, they would support a system which has produced more of it than any other system in history?

Can you answer my question? I thought this was about Q&A?
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TheDefiniteArticle
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#6446
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#6446
(Original post by Chaz W)
My views are not overly optimistic, so it's not really survivorship bias, is it? I simply observe that capitalism has produced less authoritarian governments than socialism and I want to know why, given someone is averse to authoritarianism, they would support a system which has produced more of it than any other system in history?

Can you answer my question? I thought this was about Q&A?
I mean, the entirety of history is an irrelevant sample size, and history is a notoriously bad predictor of the future. The value of knowing about history is literally only being able to chat **** about it.
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CJTWhite
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#6447
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#6447
(Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
I mean, the entirety of history is an irrelevant sample size, and history is a notoriously bad predictor of the future. The value of knowing about history is literally only being able to chat **** about it.
You're proposing we should ignore all evidence available to us that socialism produces authoritarianism? Surely you see that by saying we should ignore history you are polluting an aura of ignorance (though I don't think you have bad intentions).

We have learnt from history, well, some of us have. America is a prime example on this - their founders knew history and they created a Constitution to protect it from tyranny. Again, I don't think you have bad intentions but are you really sure you want to say that history has no worth, that it has no lessons to be learnt? Surely you must see that it has worth, even to fit your own ideological lens - we learn to ignore and shun far-right groups full of hate like the BNP because we know the ugly historical lessons - we should do the same to the far-left for the same reason, agreed?
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Jammy Duel
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#6448
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#6448
(Original post by cBay)
Although I do find it it curious why so many decide to go down the same or similar route instead of looking at the examples of history, learning from past mistakes and revising their ideas.
Because then they wouldn't be socialists?

(Original post by Aph)
I don't know what a ministry of love
Something tells me that a nineteen eighty-four reference more than anything
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TheDefiniteArticle
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#6449
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#6449
(Original post by Chaz W)
You're proposing we should ignore all evidence available to us that socialism produces authoritarianism? Surely you see that by saying we should ignore history you are polluting an aura of ignorance (though I don't think you have bad intentions).

We have learnt from history, well, some of us have. America is a prime example on this - their founders knew history and they created a Constitution to protect it from tyranny. Again, I don't think you have bad intentions but are you really sure you want to say that history has no worth, that it has no lessons to be learnt? Surely you must see that it has worth, even to fit your own ideological lens - we learn to ignore and shun far-right groups full of hate like the BNP because we know the ugly historical lessons - we should do the same to the far-left for the same reason, agreed?
We haven't learned from history to shun far-right ideas, we shun far-right ideas because they are bad ideas.

America's constitution is the single worst thing about the country and it prevents progress.

The reason why we cannot learn effectively from history is that we have no way of discovering the ex ante probability distributions.

It is not ignorance. Philosophy and economic/political theory ought to inform our political convictions; not history.
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Harold Godwinson
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#6450
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#6450
Yeah I've got a question for socialists, why do you hate the white race?
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cBay
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#6451
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#6451
(Original post by Chaz W)
So why then do you propose that we keep trying to implement something which has never not ended in authoritarianism or massive economic decline? Why should we trust a system that has failed time and time again?

If you are so averse to authoritarian leaders, why encourage a system which has produced the most authoritarian leaders?
It isn't necessarily the economic system that leads to authoritarian leaders, but the revolutionary route of getting there. Whenever a government is overthrown, whether by socialist revolutionaries or otherwise, it creates to a power vacuum in which the military leaders step into, more often than not thinking that they know best and things should be done their way. This is why I believe the slow democratic route is preferable (even though our democracy is a bit of a sham), and indeed the TSR Socialist Party is a parliamentary party.

It's no surprise to me that some of the most democratic countries in the world (such as the Scandinavian countries), are a lot more left leaning, have higher levels of equality, and believe it or not also have stronger and more resilient economies than ourselves.

It is simply wrong to link authoritarianism with economic ideology. However it is why I personally advocate for worker ownership of production/industry rather than mass state ownership. I do fear putting everything in the hands of the state creates a reliance on it which makes it far too easy if a madman seizes power for them to send us all to the gulag.
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Aph
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#6452
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#6452
(Original post by Harold Godwinson)
Yeah I've got a question for socialists, why do you hate the white race?
We don't...
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cBay
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#6453
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#6453
(Original post by Harold Godwinson)
Yeah I've got a question for socialists, why do you hate the white race?
We love all races equally
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Harold Godwinson
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#6454
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#6454
(Original post by Aph)
We don't...
Doesn't add up with what they've stood for in the past and of late...
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Harold Godwinson
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#6455
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#6455
(Original post by cBay)
We love all races equally
Some more then others.
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Aph
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#6456
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#6456
(Original post by Harold Godwinson)
Doesn't add up with what they've stood for in the past and of late...
Ummm I take it you aren't talking about the socialist party on TSR?
And I have no idea what you are saying.
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TheDefiniteArticle
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#6457
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#6457
(Original post by Harold Godwinson)
Some more then others.
Let me guess, you're one of these 'immigration is white genocide' pillocks who understand not the first thing about philosophy, politics, or indeed, biology?
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SakuraCayla
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#6458
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#6458
(Original post by Harold Godwinson)
Yeah I've got a question for socialists, why do you hate the white race?
It's not hating the white people to want to help those who are not white in awful circumstances such as the refugees, it isn't hating white people to say black people, and all non white people, should be equal, and that currently we can see that they are not treated as such. It isn't hating white people to support anyone's right, white or not, to be a Muslim and follow Islam, or any other religion. It isn't hating white people to want to increase or better use the foreign aid budget to help non-white Countries.

I am guessing that covers most of the grounds for your accusation, although given you just said socialists hate white people it is hard to tell why exactly you think we (to be clear I am in Labour, but consider myself to be a socialist) hate them.
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Harold Godwinson
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#6459
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#6459
(Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
Let me guess, you're one of these 'immigration is white genocide' pillocks who understand not the first thing about philosophy, politics, or indeed, biology?
Let me guess you're one of those elitists who thinks you're better then everyone else types, that thinks people who vote anything other then left are a bunch of racists, bigots and under educated. You've pretty much proved that for me in your post.
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CJTWhite
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#6460
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#6460
(Original post by cBay)
It isn't necessarily the economic system that leads to authoritarian leaders, but the revolutionary route of getting there. Whenever a government is overthrown, whether by socialist revolutionaries or otherwise, it creates to a power vacuum in which the military leaders step into, more often than not thinking that they know best and things should be done their way. This is why I believe the slow democratic route is preferable (even though our democracy is a bit of a sham), and indeed the TSR Socialist Party is a parliamentary party.

It's no surprise to me that some of the most democratic countries in the world (such as the Scandinavian countries), are a lot more left leaning, have higher levels of equality, and believe it or not also have stronger and more resilient economies than ourselves.

It is simply wrong to link authoritarianism with economic ideology. However it is why I personally advocate for worker ownership of production/industry rather than mass state ownership. I do fear if everything is in the hands of the state, it creates a reliance on it which makes it far too easy if a madman seizes power for them to send us all to the gulag.
Thanks for the real answer, honestly it's appreciated to have an open dialogue with someone actually willing to have a proper conversation about socialism. I understand and appreciate your point about power vacuums as a result of revolution - however, could you explain to me the differences between mass state ownership and worker ownership in the context of authoritarianism? Is one more likely to result in it than the other, is one more prone to corruption?

Following that, could you provide me with evidence of these Scandinavian countries outperforming other, 'less democratic' countries? And also, how do you judge that these countries are more democratic that ourselves or let's say the United States?

Thanks a lot
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