Communism/Socialism Watch

qwertyK
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 9 months ago
#1
My grandparents are almost sympathisers of the Soviet Union XD. I can't deny I am interested in it. I personally think communism is more about power where socialism is more about people. Opinions? Which was worse? The Soviet Union/Communism or Hitler? My dad argues that the intention of the soviet union was good natured, but in theory couldn't you argue that Hitler's intentions were good for millions of ordinary working germans? But obviously both ended in mass genocide, what do you guys think
1
reply
J4ck50n
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#2
Report 9 months ago
#2
If I was to personally say which was worse, I'd definitely say Stalin's communism. I speak as a socialist (Non bias, I promise) but under Hitler, unemployment because a non issue, people's income rose, and it still allowed for some free market intervention. Stalin's communism was ambitious, but eventually failed after mass starvation and secret police
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
1
reply
Dirac_
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#3
Report 9 months ago
#3
(Original post by qwertyK)
My grandparents are almost sympathisers of the Soviet Union XD. I can't deny I am interested in it. I personally think communism is more about power where socialism is more about people. Opinions? Which was worse? The Soviet Union/Communism or Hitler? My dad argues that the intention of the soviet union was good natured, but in theory couldn't you argue that Hitler's intentions were good for millions of ordinary working germans? But obviously both ended in mass genocide, what do you guys think
Hitler’s socialism wasn’t true socialism: he had ideas of nationalising industry but he was a populist so when the industrialists complained he scrapped it. If you’re talking about a genuine soc/comm comparison then there isn’t much point given most applied communism is on Leninist basis and as he said ‘the ultimate goal of socialism is communism’.
3
reply
HighOnGoofballs
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#4
Report 9 months ago
#4
(Original post by J4ck50n)
If I was to personally say which was worse, I'd definitely say Stalin's communism. I speak as a socialist (Non bias, I promise) but under Hitler, unemployment because a non issue, people's income rose, and it still allowed for some free market intervention. Stalin's communism was ambitious, but eventually failed after mass starvation and secret police
First and foremost, the USSR was NOT a communist country, if we're going by the generally accepted Marxist definition. To be a communist country, as defined by Marx, is to have no state, and the one thing Stalin certainly had was a state - a very large one!

Moreover, under Hitler, the employment figures didn't account for people in concentration camps. So the Jews were systematically excluded from all employment statistics, and there were mandatory work programs, which, obviously decreased unemployment but in a forceful, unethical manner.

Free market intervention? Not really, the government had its mits in almost everything. Also, you do realize Hitler had a much more notorious secret police force, right? The Gestapo?
11
reply
J4ck50n
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#5
Report 9 months ago
#5
(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
First and foremost, the USSR was NOT a communist country, if we're going by the generally accepted Marxist definition. To be a communist country, as defined by Marx, is to have no state, and the one thing Stalin certainly had was a state - a very large one!

Moreover, under Hitler, the employment figures didn't account for people in concentration camps. So the Jews were systematically excluded from all employment statistics, and there were mandatory work programs, which, obviously decreased unemployment but in a forceful, unethical manner.

Free market intervention? Not really, the government had its mits in almost everything. Also, you do realize Hitler had a much more notorious secret police force, right? The Gestapo?
The USSR under Stalin was generally defined as communist, but with Marxist thoughts, and it was a system where a lot of people got paid roughly the same and a lot of food was state provided, it'd be like calling the DPRK Marxist.

And there was still free market under Hitler, for it was during this time when Fanta was developed, so the coca cola company was functioning, what's to stop other German and even more western powers having influence over the market
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
howtochangename
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#6
Report 9 months ago
#6
My grandfather was a Major in the Soviet Union and so of course my mum is inclined to look at it nostalgically as it was passed down but Marxism-Leninism wasn't that great in retrospect. There comes a point where the economy starts stagnating when you have few people in the gulag

They did make some very nice music though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUeKHggG1Uc
1
reply
HighOnGoofballs
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#7
Report 9 months ago
#7
(Original post by J4ck50n)
The USSR under Stalin was generally defined as communist, but with Marxist thoughts, and it was a system where a lot of people got paid roughly the same and a lot of food was state provided, it'd be like calling the DPRK Marxist.

And there was still free market under Hitler, for it was during this time when Fanta was developed, so the coca cola company was functioning, what's to stop other German and even more western powers having influence over the market
I'm not going to delve too much into the free market side of Hitler's Germany, because frankly, I don't know too much about it - but considering the fact that Hitler government did have their eyes on every aspect of Germany, it would surprise me greatly if they let things function freely without government oversight. You got any sources?

I know the USSR is generally defined as Communist, mostly because that was their overarching goal, but definitively, that is a misconception, the USSR was never a communist country. It having a state automatically rules out any credible attempts to call it that. Moreover, the fact that you said 'a lot of the food was state provided' further confirms the fact that it was not communist.
1
reply
qwertyK
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#8
Report Thread starter 9 months ago
#8
(Original post by howtochangename)
My grandfather was a Major in the Soviet Union and so of course my mum is inclined to look at it nostalgically as it was passed down but Marxism-Leninism wasn't that great in retrospect. There comes a point where the economy starts stagnating when you have few people in the gulag

They did make some very nice music though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUeKHggG1Uc
I love soviet music.
0
reply
J4ck50n
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#9
Report 9 months ago
#9
(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
I'm not going to delve too much into the free market side of Hitler's Germany, because frankly, I don't know too much about it - but considering the fact that Hitler government did have their eyes on every aspect of Germany, it would surprise me greatly if they let things function freely without government oversight. You got any sources?

I know the USSR is generally defined as Communist, mostly because that was their overarching goal, but definitively, that is a misconception, the USSR was never a communist country. It having a state automatically rules out any credible attempts to call it that. Moreover, the fact that you said 'a lot of the food was state provided' further confirms the fact that it was not communist.
All you need to look up is coca Cola's role in Germany during that time, there was a big advertising campaign for Fanta. Free market existed in smaller quantities, but it was still present, it's just that socialism does restrict markets, but it doesn't stamp them out

But surely everything that's state provided is the furthest side of the left of economic policy no? The 5 year plans were a plan for industrialization under a nationalised steel and coal industry, which again can link to this idea of state provision.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
Axiomasher
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#10
Report 9 months ago
#10
Hitler's 'National Socialist' regime was really a form of fascism (racism being a central ideological theme). Political movements which result in an all-encompassing state don't have a good track record, regardless of whether they are trying to 'do good' or otherwise by our standards. Power corrupts...
1
reply
HighOnGoofballs
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#11
Report 9 months ago
#11
(Original post by J4ck50n)
All you need to look up is coca Cola's role in Germany during that time, there was a big advertising campaign for Fanta. Free market existed in smaller quantities, but it was still present, it's just that socialism does restrict markets, but it doesn't stamp them out

But surely everything that's state provided is the furthest side of the left of economic policy no? The 5 year plans were a plan for industrialization under a nationalised steel and coal industry, which again can link to this idea of state provision.
So the markets were restricted? Well, then they aren't free then. They're just markets.

Communism is defined to be a stateless, classless society. Communism, has never really been tried, unless you want to count the 6 months in Cambodia or smaller scale monestaries in Ancient Greece. Socialism is defined to be when the means of production and distribution are conducted by the state. Stalin's Russia had a state which produces and distributed (wealth), and therefore it was, by definition, not a communist country like it is routinely referred to, but a socialist one.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
Just my opinion
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#12
Report 9 months ago
#12
100,000,000 deaths in the 20th century .....what's not to like?
0
reply
BeetleJews
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#13
Report 9 months ago
#13
(Original post by qwertyK)
My grandparents are almost sympathisers of the Soviet Union XD. I can't deny I am interested in it. I personally think communism is more about power where socialism is more about people. Opinions? Which was worse? The Soviet Union/Communism or Hitler? My dad argues that the intention of the soviet union was good natured, but in theory couldn't you argue that Hitler's intentions were good for millions of ordinary working germans? But obviously both ended in mass genocide, what do you guys think
Well...The numbers are there, more people died as a result of communism than fascism. Communism was very, very bad, Stalin starving tens on millions of people, Mao Zedong likewise. Nazi's were better than communists in the sense that if it weren't for the third reich communism would be ripe in central and western Europe, and with the chaos following the fall of the USSR I can say its a good thing it isn't. North Korea is a representation of what much of Asia and Europe would look like had the Nazi's not fought against the USSR. Stalin didn't sign the Geneva convention of war, german soldiers were tortured upon capture, the same was done with political opposition in the USSR and China. Hitler's regime (don't lynch me) was beneficial to the world in many ways, they made medical and scientific advances, created Fanta, they most importantly stopped communism spreading to the west. Not to say Nazi's are good, obviously not, but communism is and was the worse of two evils.
0
reply
spidle
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#14
Report 9 months ago
#14
(Original post by BeetleJews)
Well...The numbers are there, more people died as a result of communism than fascism. Communism was very, very bad, Stalin starving tens on millions of people, Mao Zedong likewise. Nazi's were better than communists in the sense that if it weren't for the third reich communism would be ripe in central and western Europe, and with the chaos following the fall of the USSR I can say its a good thing it isn't. North Korea is a representation of what much of Asia and Europe would look like had the Nazi's not fought against the USSR. Stalin didn't sign the Geneva convention of war, german soldiers were tortured upon capture, the same was done with political opposition in the USSR and China. Hitler's regime (don't lynch me) was beneficial to the world in many ways, they made medical and scientific advances, created Fanta, they most importantly stopped communism spreading to the west. Not to say Nazi's are good, obviously not, but communism is and was the worse of two evils.
I don't think you can say that without Nazism, Communism would have spread throughout Europe. It certainly was a strong barrier in central Europe that completely opposed Communism but remember that when Communism tried to spread elsewhere major powers intervened. I do agree that Hitler's regime was essentially better for mankind if compared to Stalin's regime.
0
reply
BeetleJews
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#15
Report 9 months ago
#15
(Original post by spidle)
I don't think you can say that without Nazism, Communism would have spread throughout Europe. It certainly was a strong barrier in central Europe that completely opposed Communism but remember that when Communism tried to spread elsewhere major powers intervened. I do agree that Hitler's regime was essentially better for mankind if compared to Stalin's regime.
*central and western Europe, the nazis walked through Belgium and France, whats to say the USSR wouldn't have done the same? Von Hindenberg's Germany wouldn't have stood a chance, Hitler regenerated the destroyed German economy through mass armament making it a super power able to fight against the USSR. The major world powers we see today such as the US and China were of minor influence in the 30's-40's with the USA recovering slowly from the great depression, and china being butchered by the Japanese
0
reply
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#16
Report 9 months ago
#16
(Original post by BeetleJews)
Well...The numbers are there, more people died as a result of communism than fascism. Communism was very, very bad, Stalin starving tens on millions of people, Mao Zedong likewise.
As it has been said, the Soviet communism wasn't a proper communism, but even for the Soviets (especially after Stalin) Mao was just a mad idiot who hasn't got a clue what he's actually doing.

(Original post by BeetleJews)
Nazi's were better than communists in the sense that if it weren't for the third reich communism would be ripe in central and western Europe,
They eventually took the central Europe and their reign was much less bloody than the Nazi. The Nazis killed 3 million Poles and 3 million Polish Jews in 6 yers, the Soviets killed only 340k in 14 years, that's just
120k more than Nazis killed in one month in Warsaw.

The German invasion had only one good point, that Stalin learned he cannot just ignore everyone and he has to cooperate with other countries, as well as at least make an illusion of respect for freedom of other states.


(Original post by BeetleJews)
North Korea is a representation of what much of Asia and Europe would look like had the Nazi's not fought against the USSR. Stalin didn't sign the Geneva convention of war, german soldiers were tortured upon capture, the same was done with political opposition in the USSR and China. Hitler's regime (don't lynch me) was beneficial to the world in many ways, they made medical and scientific advances, created Fanta, they most importantly stopped communism spreading to the west. Not to say Nazi's are good, obviously not, but communism is and was the worse of two evils.
North Korea is a complete extreme. As I said, after Stalin's death, Soviets considered Mao as a mad idiot, other commie leaders had similar opinions. Also, commie countries outside the Soviet Union, were generally more liberal than the USSR (maybe except for the East Germany), and their systems evolved in time. In some aspects, in the 80ies some commie countries were even more liberal than they are now.



(Original post by BeetleJews)
*central and western Europe, the nazis walked through Belgium and France, whats to say the USSR wouldn't have done the same? Von Hindenberg's Germany wouldn't have stood a chance, Hitler regenerated the destroyed German economy through mass armament making it a super power able to fight against the USSR. The major world powers we see today such as the US and China were of minor influence in the 30's-40's with the USA recovering slowly from the great depression, and china being butchered by the Japanese

The Nazis also made it to the suburbs of Moscow in a few months.
The Soviet army in 1941 was poorly commanded, poorly trained, poorly organised, had poor morale, utilised obsolete tactical doctrene, utilized poor tactics (or no tactics at all) and counted mainly on extensive manpower, sick amount of tanks and artillery. Still, this power was organised and used so poorly they couldn't even deal with Finland, and the Nazis marched through them at an impressive pace.

Through it's entire existence, the 2nd Republic of Poland was preparing to fight against a Soviet-kind of army. If you were to stop the Bolshevik invasion, then what you should have done, was to support the Intermarum project and lend money to countries such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania to modernize and built an industry that would support economy of these countries and provide necessary amount of weaponery.
Even without such support, the Polish Army in 1939 was theoretically 1,5 million men strong (but only 700k were mobilised before September 6th). If Britain had not torpedoed the Polish mobilization in 1939, and the West had started providing support a couple of years earlier, Poland alone would have sent up to 3 million soldiers and a couple thousands of tanks to combat on September 1939.
1
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#17
Report 9 months ago
#17
(Original post by J4ck50n)
If I was to personally say which was worse, I'd definitely say Stalin's communism. I speak as a socialist (Non bias, I promise) but under Hitler, unemployment because a non issue, people's income rose, and it still allowed for some free market intervention. Stalin's communism was ambitious, but eventually failed after mass starvation and secret police
If there is one thing that can be said in favor of the holocaust it is that it created jobs.
0
reply
J4ck50n
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#18
Report 9 months ago
#18
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
If there is one thing that can be said in favor of the holocaust it is that it created jobs.
A silver lining in every cloud, although this cloud was more of a Hurricane. But it wasn't just in the military, there was a lot more jobs created to help with the effort back home too
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#19
Report 9 months ago
#19
(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
I'm not going to delve too much into the free market side of Hitler's Germany, because frankly, I don't know too much about it - but considering the fact that Hitler government did have their eyes on every aspect of Germany, it would surprise me greatly if they let things function freely without government oversight. You got any sources?
Fascism's economic system is best described as corporatism.
0
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#20
Report 9 months ago
#20
(Original post by J4ck50n)
A silver lining in every cloud, although this cloud was more of a Hurricane. But it wasn't just in the military, there was a lot more jobs created to help with the effort back home too
The Bolshies created jobs too you know. They got the first man into space.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Where do you need more help?

Which Uni should I go to? (166)
18.55%
How successful will I become if I take my planned subjects? (91)
10.17%
How happy will I be if I take this career? (148)
16.54%
How do I achieve my dream Uni placement? (131)
14.64%
What should I study to achieve my dream career? (85)
9.5%
How can I be the best version of myself? (274)
30.61%

Watched Threads

View All