US supreme court backs bakers gay-wedding snub Watch

Underscore__
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Drewski)
When that service is an artisinal bakers, fine.

But what if they're the ambulance service? What if it's the fire service?

At some point, somewhere, you have to draw a line and say you can't discriminate. Where's the line?
The line is public and private services. Private services should be allowed to discriminate on any basis they like, public services should not be able to discriminate against any citizen (save for exceptional circumstances)
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Drewski
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#42
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(Original post by Underscore__)
The line is public and private services. Private services should be allowed to discriminate on any basis they like, public services should not be able to discriminate against any citizen (save for exceptional circumstances)
I don't see how you can reasonably argue that discrimination is good when it's done by some people, but bad when done by others.
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Wired_1800
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#43
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(Original post by Guru Jason)
Because one can't choose their sexual orientation or their race so why is it acceptable to refuse service for one and not the othetr. Speaks of hypocracy to me
The legal dynamics for this is debatable. When does one’s freedom & rights impinge on another person’s rights?

To the original point, I think black people are used for everything. A new campaign and it is immediately compared to the Holocaust or Slavery.
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Underscore__
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#44
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(Original post by Drewski)
I don't see how you can reasonably argue that discrimination is good when it's done by some people, but bad when done by others.
I haven’t argued that it’s good. A private business should be free to turn away customers for any reason they choose. A public service should not because it’s provided by the state, not a private organisation.
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Drewski
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#45
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(Original post by Underscore__)
I haven’t argued that it’s good. A private business should be free to turn away customers for any reason they choose. A public service should not because it’s provided by the state, not a private organisation.
Giving them the freedom to discriminate is inherently saying that it's ok to do so.
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Underscore__
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#46
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(Original post by Drewski)
Giving them the freedom to discriminate is inherently saying that it's ok to do so.
No it’s not, I just don’t think everything that I think is bad should be illegal
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Guru Jason
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I would personally see it like this. If you can't choose something ie race, disability or sexual orientation, then you should not be able to discriminate against and should always overrule the rights of things that can be changed such as religion or politics.

Edit: this was meant to quote Wired1800 but my phone didn't quote for some reason.
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Guru Jason
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#48
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
The legal dynamics for this is debatable. When does one’s freedom & rights impinge on another person’s rights?

To the original point, I think black people are used for everything. A new campaign and it is immediately compared to the Holocaust or Slavery.
For some reason my response didn't quote. Please see above.
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Axiomasher
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#49
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(Original post by Underscore__)
No it’s not, I just don’t think everything that I think is bad should be illegal
Through political representation our society as a whole has determined that discrimination on the basis of things like race and sex is unacceptable by subjecting it to legal penalty. You're right that things shouldn't be illegal just because you or I think they are bad but on the basis of what we as a society think is bad and worthy of formal sanction.
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Underscore__
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#50
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
Through political representation our society as a whole has determined that discrimination on the basis of things like race and sex is unacceptable by subjecting it to legal penalty. You're right that things shouldn't be illegal just because you or I think they are bad but on the basis of what we as a society think is bad and worthy of formal sanction.
I don’t think the majority deciding upon something is reason enough to make it illegal. Also my original point had a very specific context which was that I was saying just because I’m saying something shouldn’t be illegal that doesn’t mean I’m saying it’s okay or ‘good’ as I was originally accused
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Drewski
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#51
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(Original post by Underscore__)
No it’s not, I just don’t think everything that I think is bad should be illegal
You might think it's not, but I can categorically guarantee that that is the way it would be interpreted.
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Wired_1800
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#52
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(Original post by Guru Jason)
I would personally see it like this. If you can't choose something ie race, disability or sexual orientation, then you should not be able to discriminate against and should always overrule the rights of things that can be changed such as religion or politics.

Edit: this was meant to quote Wired1800 but my phone didn't quote for some reason.
(Original post by Guru Jason)
For some reason my response didn't quote. Please see above.
That is debateable.

Let us use a radical example. Imagine, 15 years from now, the Government reduces the age of consent to 13 and legalises sexual encounter with persons of 13 and above. The argument may be that 13 year old girls are mature enough and should be allowed to make their own decisions.

You have a cake shop and a 43 year old man comes in with his 13 year old girlfriend. They want to buy a cake for his 44th birthday. As this is an alien sight, you refuse to serve them based on your own morals and views. They then sue you for discrimination. They are within their rights to be served and you cannot discriminate against them.

How do you react? Now, also remember that the gay marriage was legalised in 2013, so before then it was illegal in many parts of the country. Now, tell me how you will react?
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JohanGRK
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#53
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I've always wondered why the idiots in these cases don't give some other bs reason about refusing to serve the client.
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nulli tertius
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#54
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
I believe Christianity to be morally abhorrent, can I refuse to serve Christians?
In Colorado, seemingly "yes" because there is nothing in the Colorado Anti-Discriminaton Act that protects against religious discrimination.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Drewski)
I don't see how you can reasonably argue that discrimination is good when it's done by some people, but bad when done by others.
That is going too far.

A public body has no interest beyond the public interest. A public body has no rights of its own to assert.

A private person has his own rights and one person's claim of discrimination is invariably a claim to interfere with someone else's freedom.
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Underscore__
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(Original post by Drewski)
You might think it's not, but I can categorically guarantee that that is the way it would be interpreted.
Well if you think someone saying that something shouldn’t be illegal means that person thinks it’s good that’s your problem. It’s a real leap from one to the other.
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Jebedee
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#57
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If a Christian Baker can't refuse a gay cake due to religious beliefs then I guess now we have to force the Muslim body waxer to wax the penis of a trans woman against her will.

What a tangled web we weave...
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TimmonaPortella
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#58
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(Original post by Underscore__)
A business should be able to turn away customers for any reason they like so I’m definitely in favour of this decision
Yep.

(Original post by Axiomasher)
I believe Christianity to be morally abhorrent, can I refuse to serve Christians?
Yep. At least, you ought to be able to. You can't under our law as it stands.

(Original post by Drewski)
*Any* reason?

What if this baker didn't want <insert any race here> customers?
Yep.

If they want to lose the business and suffer boycotts, that's their call.

Freedom of contract should be the ultimate principle here. It is no-one's place to tell me that I have to enter into business with someone I don't want to. The reasons are irrelevant.

(Original post by Drewski)
Giving them the freedom to discriminate is inherently saying that it's ok to do so.
What an appallingly totalitarian worldview.
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Axiomasher
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#59
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(Original post by Underscore__)
I don’t think the majority deciding upon something is reason enough to make it illegal...
Through political representation that's how democracies make laws.
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Bang Outta Order
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#60
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(Original post by Drewski)
*Any* reason?

What if this baker didn't want <insert any race here> customers?
Oh please, race doesn't jeopardise someone's morals, but all religions and even non-believers believe homosexuality is wrong. Going to a Christian place, to get a cake with gay writing, is clear baiting. However, if I owned the shop and didn't want them there I would've pretended to process their order but never do it and delay until they get annoyed and return their money, or tell them we dont have that cake flavour, or something. I wouldnt have eaten the bait by telling them we dont do cakes like that.
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