US supreme court backs bakers gay-wedding snub Watch

nulli tertius
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#81
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(Original post by Observatory)
The court only affirmed a right to refuse to bake the cake.
I'm not sure it even went that far.

The court affirmed a right to an unbiased tribunal to determine the question of whether refusing to bake this cake in these circumstances (about which it thought the court was not well informed) was lawful.

As these were proceedings between the State and the baker and not between the baker and the couple, there was clearly no enthusiasm to send the case round again to get the judiciary involved in the minutiae of the cake order. The State had failed to investigate allegedly discriminatory cake baking properly and it wasn't going to be given a second chance to see if it could do better.

One of the interesting things was that this appeared (unlike the NI case) to have been a bona fide cake and not a political stunt. The Supreme Court is going to have to face and find a way of preventing combatants turning culture wars into confectionery battles. The Court has faced many controversies about the erection or removal of public sculpture but a limiting factor has been the costs related to the physical object. Cakes are cheaper to order.
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username3672344
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#82
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(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
Yep.



Yep. At least, you ought to be able to. You can't under our law as it stands.



Yep.

If they want to lose the business and suffer boycotts, that's their call.

Freedom of contract should be the ultimate principle here. It is no-one's place to tell me that I have to enter into business with someone I don't want to. The reasons are irrelevant.



What an appallingly totalitarian worldview.
I would draw a distinction.

I agree with the decision in this case, as I don't think you should be able to make people serve you a specific cake. It's not about not serving certain people per se, it's about not offering a specific product.

But if a business were to say 'we aren't going to allow black/gay/Jewish customers etc, then we are on extremely shakey and dangerous ground and surely that shouldn't be allowed.
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TimmonaPortella
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
I would draw a distinction.

I agree with the decision in this case, as I don't think you should be able to make people serve you a specific cake. It's not about not serving certain people per se, it's about not offering a specific product.

But if a business were to say 'we aren't going to allow black/gay/Jewish customers etc, then we are on extremely shakey and dangerous ground and surely that shouldn't be allowed.
If a business were to say that they would be on extremely shaky ground commercially, but that's a matter for them really.

Why shouldn't it be allowed? What right, exactly, would it infringe? Because it seems to me that I, as an individual, have absolutely no right to demand that any business sells me things or otherwise deals with me. If you accept that then it follows that their reasons for refusing to deal with me, if they do refuse to deal with me, are irrelevant. It's their call, and why they made it is none of my business.
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username3672344
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(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
If a business were to say that they would be on extremely shaky ground commercially, but that's a matter for them really.

Why shouldn't it be allowed? What right, exactly, would it infringe? Because it seems to me that I, as an individual, have absolutely no right to demand that any business sells me things or otherwise deals with me. If you accept that then it follows that their reasons for refusing to deal with me, if they do refuse to deal with me, are irrelevant. It's their call, and why they made it is none of my business.
To me it's about finding the right balance between economic freedom and societal impact. I understand that to others the balance will be different.

For example, I'm Jewish and I frequently use the train to travel to London. What happens if Virgin Trains suddenly decide 'no Jews can use our trains'? Its hardly like I can choose a different train to get to London. Or what happens if every supermarket suddenly decides they don't want Jewish people there?There are only a few hundred thousand of us, so a business wouldn't necessarily suffer any financial impact from it.

The societal impact of allowing businesses to say 'we are not going to serve people of a certain race/Ethnicity/ sexuality would be catastrophic. Indeed, we don't have to look that far back into history to see what happened when certain groups weren't allowed to shop at and go to the same places as others.

I fully agree that you can't and shouldn't be able to demand anyone makes you a certain product though, but that's very different from not serving someone an existing product just because of their race.
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DrMikeHuntHertz
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If you're a gay and you go and get a cake, the baker is homophobic and he can't reject the order, you may end up with not only an inferior cake, but one with potentially unwanted 'additions'.

Lawsuits like this especially where they win like in the UK actually increase negative attitudes towards minorities.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by DrMikeHuntHertz)
If you're a gay and you go and get a cake, the baker is homophobic and he can't reject the order, you may end up with not only an inferior cake, but one with potentially unwanted 'additions'.

Lawsuits like this especially where they win like in the UK actually increase negative attitudes towards minorities.
I agree. I think some groups put themselves in more danger because they want to see “justice”. If a person is deeply against homosexuality and then you force him to bake you a cake because it is your right. You, your husband and guests may well be poisoned to death.

I think people need to choose their battles. Unfortunately, we now live in a world heaving with hysteria.
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FingersXed84
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Exactly. I am bi. If I was refused service for a same sex marriage cake then I’d go to another business and take my business there. Plus, it annoys me that they always challenge Christians. Would you expect a devout Muslim to name a same sex marriage cake? Why should you make anyone do anything? I think going on the internet and outing the baker for what they did and letting the market punish him is enough. Sometimes rights class. Religious freedom is just as important as free sexuality. I respect other people’s right to dislike all other decisions in my life. Why should my choice of partner be different?
(Original post by Cubone-r)
Obviously that would be a discriminatory act if they had refused on the basis of ethnicity, but this was not the case in this instance.

However, in the U.S. constitution you have this idea of free religious expression. The government cannot force the baker to make the wedding cake for a gay wedding as it goes against their religious beliefs (i.e., certain interpretations of the bible does not allow for homosexual marriage).

Now in this case, you either remove the religious freedom rights that the bakery owner has and the government forces him/her to make the cake for the couple or the couple can just go find another bakery that will make the cake for them. I know which option I'd choose.
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Jebedee
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(Original post by FingersXed84)
Exactly. I am bi. If I was refused service for a same sex marriage cake then I’d go to another business and take my business there. Plus, it annoys me that they always challenge Christians. Would you expect a devout Muslim to name a same sex marriage cake? Why should you make anyone do anything? I think going on the internet and outing the baker for what they did and letting the market punish him is enough. Sometimes rights class. Religious freedom is just as important as free sexuality. I respect other people’s right to dislike all other decisions in my life. Why should my choice of partner be different?
Steven Crowder did this experiment with a Muslim Baker and they bluntly refused and told him to go elsewhere.
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looloo2134
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There was a non-religious married couple who run a guest house who for moral reasons would not rent rooms to unmarried couples whatever sexuality. They ended up getting in trouble for discrimination against unmarried couples.
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AngeryPenguin
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(Original post by the bear)
what about if you wanted a Swastika Cake ?

the Swastika is a venerated symbol of Good Fortune in various Eastern Religions.
Nazism isn't a sexuality.
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yudothis
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The Swastika existed long before the Nazis.

Anyway, given how keen liberals are on 'cancel' culture, yet another example of their hypocrisy.
(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Nazism isn't a sexuality.
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yankeedog1953
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#92
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maybe cases could be decided on which litigant had the "easier path" to find a remedy. Example would be the couple could go next door and an equally good cake. they would have the easier path. But if the couple were needing to buy insulin or needed medical attention clearly the pharmacist or physician would have to bend since the couple had no medical training and the next pharmacy might be miles away.

If some members of a social group are not willing to wait to gain social acceptance the old fashion way, which would be to gain acceptance slowly as old prejudices fell away, and instead demand that the courts force society to recognise them overnight, than they can't expect their " court ordered ", freedoms to be as air-tight or as universally respected by everyone.
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