Gullible Trump got played by Kim Watch

AlexanderHam
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Trump was completely played by Kim. He's acting like it's some amazing achievement to get a bilateral summit with Kim. In fact, the North Koreans have been seeking bilateral talks for years, and craved the legitimacy that a one-on-one meeting would confer.

The Koreans committed themselves to absolutely nothing, whereas Trump agreed to security guarantees, to end South-Korea military exercises and portrayed Kim as an equal of the US president (in an interview, Trump went on and on about how "nice" and "honourable" Kim is and how he "loves his people" )

Any previous US president could have "achieved" this. The reason they didn't was because it takes no skill, and benefits the US not at all, to simply make concessions. The US policy was also not to make any concessions until the North Koreans took concrete, verifiable, irreversible steps to end their nuclear weapons programme. Given the North Koreans have twice broken previous agreements (the 1994 Agreed Framework, and the 2005 Six-Party talks)

It's laughable to see Trumpkins lauding Trump for this. In reality, it's a policy of total weakness and concession. But Trump will do anything as long as it gives him the opportunity to take the limelight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/o...rth-korea.html

It sure looks as if President Trump was hoodwinked in Singapore.

Trump made a huge concession — the suspension of military exercises with South Korea. That’s on top of the broader concession of the summit meeting itself, security guarantees he gave North Korea and the legitimacy that the summit provides his counterpart, Kim Jong-un.

Within North Korea, the “very special bond” that Trump claimed to have formed with Kim will be portrayed this way: Kim forced the American president, through his nuclear and missile tests, to accept North Korea as a nuclear equal, to provide security guarantees to North Korea, and to cancel war games with South Korea that the North has protested for decades.
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Napp
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https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/p...th-korean-deal

This analsyst syms it up quitewell to be honest.

But yes completely agree. Wee Kimmy there played Trump like a fiddle.
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gjd800
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I don't want to agree, but I do - I said very similar in ours this afternoon. I hope it all comes off, just can't see Kim sticking to **** all.
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username2763536
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He obviously had to make some concessions though.You can't just expect North Korea to give up their nukes whilst getting absolutely nothing in return.Ending the war games is a logical step towards peace.
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Maker
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Now, any country that wants concessions from Trump is make some atom bombs, Iran is taking note.

Trump got played, the N Koreans bet on his vanity of being a world statesman doing what no previous president could do overcoming his common sense and won.
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AngeryPenguin
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
The US policy was also not to make any concessions until the North Koreans took concrete, verifiable, irreversible steps to end their nuclear weapons programme.
Why would NK give up their nuclear weapons programme?

It is the only reason they are a state the US is forced to negotiate with, rather than yet another third world country the US bombs with drones.
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xBasedChris
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A few points:

There are no war games planned until 2019, meaning, assuming the timeline for these efforts is as immediate as Trump is portraying them, and we have no reason to disbelieve him (No, the North Koreans' failure to comment on the matter, a clear show of weakness, is not an excuse for this not being true; we have to wait and see), that the US can evalute North Korean cooperation with any agreements before the games actually take place. In essence, Trump has either given up military exercises, partially, in exchange for denuclearisation, or he has offered something which can be revoked, without effective harm, in the event that North Korea does not cooperate.

As for security assurances, this was always going to be a must. The North Korean regime understands that there are two things protecting their position - a Chinese desire not to have a US-backed Korean penninsula dominated by what is the current political class of South Korea, and their nuclear program. In apparently abandoning the latter, assurances need to be made in order to make the next step. I would also note that this might have no real ramifications, depending upon the details of what those assurances entail, seeing as the Chinese will have an impetus to provide heightened protection for North Korea were it to fail to denuclearise, and in the event that it doesn't do that, then we're back at step one - and nothing has been lost.

Otherwise, the North Koreans have agreed to verification, whatever that may entail, and economic and political sanctions will remain in place for the foreseeable future. Trump's material concessions, by accident or intention, are not true concessions at all unless real progress is made on the North Korean side, which one can argue would be worth the concessions agreed to in the deal.

On legitimacy, and Trump's gregariousness towards Kim Jong Un, I do agree. I do not feel that it is appropriate for a President of the United States to laud he who is the modern equivalent of Hitler. However, I would say that this is classic Trumpism, and I have a hard time believing, especially given Trump's prior rhetoric, that this is the reflection of Trump's genuine feelings about the man. Still, we'll need to wait and see - I am more interested in material concessions than supposed legitimacy, especially when the latter is still denied by the vast majority of both the American nation, and the rest of the world.

In short, a significant portion of your argument - all barring the comments on legitimacy - is centred on the notion that the concessions Trump has agreed to will actually happen without any action on the behalf of the North Koreans, and given both the nature of these sorts of deals, and the nature of the concessions themselves, I see no evidence for this being immediately true. We will have to wait and see.

Correction: There are no specific US-South Korean war exercises planned until 2019, as in the exercises intended to prepare for a war with North Korea. There are other exercises involving those countries, with minor practices for war between them, and many others, which is what was cancelled today.
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xBasedChris
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(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Why would NK give up their nuclear weapons programme?

It is the only reason they are a state the US is forced to negotiate with, rather than yet another third world country the US bombs with drones.
North Korea's nuclear pursuits have only been threatening for the last 15-20 years, with their progress being far more primitive before that. Still, the US negotiated with, and treated the North Koreans, seriously before that. Beyond its weapons, North Korea has significance for being a China-backed state opposed to the US-backed state of South Korea, and one in a state of perpetual hostility towards that state.
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username521617
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Everything Trump does has to be mocked or criticised in some way, doesn't it?

If North Korea fails to keep their end of the deal, there's nothing stopping the US from returning to the peninsula. In addition, China, Japan and South Korea serve as useful deterrents on their own. I very much doubt North Korea will see the absence of US forces on the peninsula (which could return at any time) as their window to get up to no good again. I expect the US will continue to watch North Korea closely after they pull out.

At best, North Korea will have ceased their pursuit of a nuclear arsenal and tension in Korea will ease massively with a gesture of good faith from both sides, possibly resulting in peace in the future. At worst, Korea doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, and we're simply back to where we started.
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Maker
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
Everyone Trump does has to be mocked or criticised in some way, doesn't it?

If North Korea fails to keep their end of the deal, there's nothing stopping the US from returning to the peninsula. In addition, China, Japan and South Korea serve as useful deterrents on their own. I very much doubt North Korea will see the absence of US forces on the peninsula (which could return at any time) as their window to get up to no good again. I expect the US will continue to watch North Korea closely after they pull out.

At best, North Korea will have ceased their pursuit of a nuclear arsenal and tension in Korea will ease massively with a gesture of good faith from both sides, possibly resulting in peace in the future. At worst, Korea doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, and we're simply back to where we started.
You are forgetting that if the initiative fails, it would embarrass Trump and the Americans and they would be extremely reluctant to try again. A more conventional approach is designed to avoid this situation be only bring in the principles when all the barriers have been negotiated away.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Why would NK give up their nuclear weapons programme?

It is the only reason they are a state the US is forced to negotiate with, rather than yet another third world country the US bombs with drones.
Because Kim had to borrow a Chinese jet to fly to Singapore.

Kim was educated in Switzerland. Unlike his father and grandfather, he knows that he is as much a prisoner as his subjects.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Dandaman1)

At best, North Korea will have ceased their pursuit of a nuclear arsenal and tension in Korea will ease massively with a gesture of good faith from both sides, possibly resulting in peace in the future. At worst, Korea doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, and we're simply back to where we started.
Except if that is the outcome, Trump will have egg all over his face and the US will be further discredited as the leading superpower. It's odd, because clearly one of Trump's major motives here was to prove he could outdo Obama (he is obsessed with beating Obama and desirous of the Nobel PP that Barack pretty undeservedly got), yet despite his much vaunted (by him, if nobody else) negotiation skills, there is no evidence so far that he has made any progress at all with the DPRK leadership. Therefore even by his own objectives Trump appears to be failing.

Looked at in the wider global context, the outcome of the talks appear to be a complete victory for Kim and what amounts to a surrender by the US, their second major surrender since WW2. (the first was the 'peace treaty' with the all-conquering North Vietnamese government - strange that both of the US surrenders involve communists in E. Asia.)

Still worse, the US has signalled that nuclear proliferation is the only way to go - the talks only happened because of NK's success in building deployable weapons - instead of cracking down even harder, Trump has shown that Kim's strategy for keeping his cruel and corrupt government in office - sacrifice your people's welfare and future by investing everything you have in nuclear weapons development - works.

All in all, a miserable day for the world, for the people of North Korea who will continue to suffer under an odious tyranny and for Americans and westerners, who have caved in to the worst kind of thuggery and swaggering.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by nulli tertius)

Kim was educated in Switzerland. Unlike his father and grandfather, he knows that he is as much a prisoner as his subjects.
Not to take the quote too far, but he's hardly in the same boat as his subjects. Kim and his inner circle enjoy every luxury the west can provide, they have palaces, golf courses, yachts and casinos. The average citizen in N Korea just about barely gets enough food to eat, endures a miserable existence of underpaid work and moronic, perpetual monitoring of every aspect of their lives by ever-present spying security services infiltrated into their surroundings on a scale that makes the Stasi look like amateurs.

So no, he's not quite as much of a prisoner. I take your basic point though.
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AlexanderHam
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Except if that is the outcome, Trump will have egg all over his face.
That is in itself highly dangerous; Trump is so invested in this, psychologically and reputationally, that he will make extreme concessions and bend over backwards to keep the dialogue going. This is precisely why leader summits only come after the diplomats have worked things out and some concrete steps of bona fides have been taken. Trump has "negotiated" himself into a corner whereby he will accept almost anything the North Koreans so long as the North Koreans do not embarrass him publicly.

I'm no longer astounded by how stupid Trump is, but his utter artlessness and lack of statecraft. What continues to depress me is how braindead his supporters are; supposed conservatives who are cheering Trump on while he undertakes a policy that, if Obama had done it, he would have been rightly excoriated by the Republicans.
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username1738683
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)

I'm no longer astounded by how stupid Trump is, but his utter artlessness and lack of statecraft. What continues to depress me is how braindead his supporters are; supposed conservatives who are cheering Trump on while he undertakes a policy that, if Obama had done it, he would have been rightly excoriated by the Republicans.
Be honest, what do you think the take is among people in SK and Japan? Some do share yours but what about the majority?
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LastGen
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Can nobody just be happy that things went well for once?
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username1738683
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(Original post by LastGen)
Can nobody just be happy that things went well for once?
It's the feeling of unhappiness at the possibility of any good coming out of it taking over, it's very unhealthy and leads to nothing more than a hypothetical list of things that could wrong and that they may even wish would go wrong just for the sake of proving Trump... wrong. Of course, they have no plan B whatsoever.

There were a couple of people in here crucifying Trump when he cancelled, what an idiot he was for turning back from such a window of opportunity and it is a shame i can't remember who. Just checking...
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rockrunride
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At a very basic level, it's refreshing to hear something other than "muh axis of evil" emanate from the United States regarding North Korea.

Hillary would not have done this or even considered it for a second.
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pocklington888
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
Trump was completely played by Kim. He's acting like it's some amazing achievement to get a bilateral summit with Kim. In fact, the North Koreans have been seeking bilateral talks for years, and craved the legitimacy that a one-on-one meeting would confer.

The Koreans committed themselves to absolutely nothing, whereas Trump agreed to security guarantees, to end South-Korea military exercises and portrayed Kim as an equal of the US president (in an interview, Trump went on and on about how "nice" and "honourable" Kim is and how he "loves his people" )

Any previous US president could have "achieved" this. The reason they didn't was because it takes no skill, and benefits the US not at all, to simply make concessions. The US policy was also not to make any concessions until the North Koreans took concrete, verifiable, irreversible steps to end their nuclear weapons programme. Given the North Koreans have twice broken previous agreements (the 1994 Agreed Framework, and the 2005 Six-Party talks)

It's laughable to see Trumpkins lauding Trump for this. In reality, it's a policy of total weakness and concession. But Trump will do anything as long as it gives him the opportunity to take the limelight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/o...rth-korea.html
I take it that you believe that the atomic bomb exists and that Hiroshima was not fire bombed (like Tokyo was). Or do you work for someone?
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username521617
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Except if that is the outcome, Trump will have egg all over his face and the US will be further discredited as the leading superpower. It's odd, because clearly one of Trump's major motives here was to prove he could outdo Obama (he is obsessed with beating Obama and desirous of the Nobel PP that Barack pretty undeservedly got), yet despite his much vaunted (by him, if nobody else) negotiation skills, there is no evidence so far that he has made any progress at all with the DPRK leadership. Therefore even by his own objectives Trump appears to be failing.

Looked at in the wider global context, the outcome of the talks appear to be a complete victory for Kim and what amounts to a surrender by the US, their second major surrender since WW2. (the first was the 'peace treaty' with the all-conquering North Vietnamese government - strange that both of the US surrenders involve communists in E. Asia.)

Still worse, the US has signalled that nuclear proliferation is the only way to go - the talks only happened because of NK's success in building deployable weapons - instead of cracking down even harder, Trump has shown that Kim's strategy for keeping his cruel and corrupt government in office - sacrifice your people's welfare and future by investing everything you have in nuclear weapons development - works.

All in all, a miserable day for the world, for the people of North Korea who will continue to suffer under an odious tyranny and for Americans and westerners, who have caved in to the worst kind of thuggery and swaggering.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. This deal is positive. North Korea has actually agreed to to nuclear disarmament, and again, there's nothing to stop the US from simply returning if NK breaks the deal. Would there be some political embarrassment for the US? Everyone knows the terms of the deal and what would happen in either scenario. It's a given they would have to return of it falls through. But what's more important? Nuclear disarmament, diplomatic progress and a step forward to eventual peace, or the US's image? And what this has shown North Korea is that the US is willing to move forward positively in return for co-operation, instead of merely beating them over the head with sanctions, which at this point have only been meagerly effective and failed to achieve anything of this significance.

The US hasn't "caved in" to anything. They've simply moved with a gesture of good faith in return from the same from North Korea - who's government was pursuing nuclear weapons to threaten and possibly attack those around them. Again, what's more important here? Would you rather we just continue with the status quo which did nothing to prevent NK's armament? Sanctions weren't helping the North Korean people, nor were they discouraging their government from shows of force or the creation of a nuclear arsenal. At this point, they are political signalling - "North Korea did something naughty, so let's impose new sanctions to show how much we disapprove." Rinse and repeat with no real progress.

So far, this move by the Trump administration is the only one that has resulted in NK agreeing to nuclear disarmament. It's a landmark step forward. "Cracking down" on NK with sanctions hasn't achieved that. But by all means, continue to criticise this achievement, presumably because Trump is the man behind it.
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