Should we let people learn from their mistakes, or try to show them the light? Watch

freept
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I'm very divided.

Should I continue to bring right-wing reason to my left-wing counterparts or stop worrying about a quasi-communist Corbyn government?

I think that right now we have a radical left Labour party, and a centre-left Tory party. There's nothing conservative about the Conservatives. They keep changing things. The leadership is missing the key part of their name - conserve.

I also think that even if Labour wins majority in the next election, at best they'll have to form a coalition with just one party. SNP coalition might mean concessions around Scottish independence and potential fall of the Union. In any case, Corbyn is unlikely to implement even half of his proposals given the PLP won't support most of his policies.

But lets think of the Left's Utopia of an outright Labour majority filled with left leaning, left thinking, left handed Corbynites. Should we let the British people learn what it means to live in a communist country the hard way?
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Archurus23
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We already have history to learn from. A communist state in Britain is a very bad idea. It seems that Communism can’t be practiced without killing people who don’t wish to adhere to it. This goes for fascism as well. If a single one of your detractors have to die so as to allow you to dictate your agenda with no discourse, your ideas were never valid to begin with. Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Mao Zedong are all bad examples, and anyone in favour just says “Oh that’s not real Communism” even though it is. I always thought that was weird because I’ve never heard anyone look at Hitler or Mussolini and say, “Oh that’s not real Fascism”. Unfortunately there will always be people who believe in those extremes but we have enough examples to show us that it would be a bad idea. We can’t have people dying here or even being stripped of their freedom which is what would happen. All that’s necessary is a reminder. Learning the hard way? The price is too high I think.
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freept
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Corbyn may be a lovely old chap, and lets assume blindly that McDonnell wouldn't be as extreme as he says he would, if we let them create a big government machine that intervenes in all aspects of your life and takws your money in return for give aways, the next government may use that machine to create a lot of harm. And you can't guarantee that the next government won't be extreme.
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Archurus23
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There’s no such thing as a system from which absolutely everyone will benefit. And I have no respect for someone who openly states that they stand for Social Justice or thinks that states like the USSR or Venezuela are what Britain should be more like. Better people choose their own fate than the government choose it for them. With a system in which a central council decides who gets what, they will naturally decide that some animals are more equal than others. And when no one is allowed to prosper, everyone stagnates at the bottom.
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Joleee
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maybe try working on your argument? maybe it's not persuasive enough.

also i thought right-wingers were about free thought and open debate. if you're forcing politics down your friends' throat then you might wanna re-think your approach.
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Chucke1992
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People don't learn from mistakes and repeat of the history shows that.
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Davij038
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Stop worrying

Either the conservatives elect someone vaguely to the right like Mogg or they will get beaten by Corbyn. Either option is good for me.

I fail to see any real difference between a Corbyn and May government other than Corbyn won’t tske us into wars. Things aren’t going to get any better and the economic shock of a Corbyn win may just trigger a reactionary force for change into power like we are seeing across Europe and elsewhere.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by freept)
There's nothing conservative about the Conservatives.
There absolutely is. They are completely obsessed with Europe and in-party fighting. If that isn't the model definition of the Tory party, I don't know what is. And meanwhile (just like in the 90's) the country is going to the dogs whilst they continue to fight amongst themselves.
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Archurus23
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(Original post by Davij038)
Stop worrying

Either the conservatives elect someone vaguely to the right like Mogg or they will get beaten by Corbyn. Either option is good for me.

I fail to see any real difference between a Corbyn and May government other than Corbyn won’t tske us into wars. Things aren’t going to get any better and the economic shock of a Corbyn win may just trigger a reactionary force for change into power like we are seeing across Europe and elsewhere.
Easy. Corbyn is a hardcore socialist and May is a spineless fool
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freept
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(Original post by ByEeek)
There absolutely is. They are completely obsessed with Europe and in-party fighting. If that isn't the model definition of the Tory party, I don't know what is. And meanwhile (just like in the 90's) the country is going to the dogs whilst they continue to fight amongst themselves.
Europe is a continent and in-party fighting is what happens in any group of individuals. Neither is a conservative issue. The EU, and being out of it, is a conservative issue because a conservative values independence.
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freept
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(Original post by Joleee)
maybe try working on your argument? maybe it's not persuasive enough.

also i thought right-wingers were about free thought and open debate. if you're forcing politics down your friends' throat then you might wanna re-think your approach.
The argument is right, people are unwilling to take responsibility and it's difficult to show them why it's important to do so.

No forcing anything down my friends' throat nasty...
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ByEeek
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(Original post by freept)
The EU, and being out of it, is a conservative issue because a conservative values independence.
You would think so wouldn't you. Except our dear Tory party can neither decide what that actually means or agree on a way forward. Meanwhile companies like Airbus and BMW are making plans to go elsewhere. Could the last person to leave please turn out the lights?
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freept
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(Original post by ByEeek)
You would think so wouldn't you. Except our dear Tory party can neither decide what that actually means or agree on a way forward. Meanwhile companies like Airbus and BMW are making plans to go elsewhere. Could the last person to leave please turn out the lights?
You keep mixing conservatism, the ideology, with Conservative Party name chosen by one of the party leaders.

The Tories became have been occupying the centre ground during the last few elections, not many conservatives among the Conservatives.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by freept)
The Tories became have been occupying the centre ground during the last few elections, not many conservatives among the Conservatives.
They really haven't. If they did, they would be back in landslide territory. People in this country care about the NHS, education and crime. The Tories have no real policy on any of them and as a result we are seeing crises in all of those areas. All the Tories care about is Europe and as such, they are doing a very good job at destroying their party and the country over the matter. When Brexit is all said and done I can see the Tories disappearing into the hinterlands for another 20 years.
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freept
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(Original post by ByEeek)
They really haven't. If they did, they would be back in landslide territory. People in this country care about the NHS, education and crime. The Tories have no real policy on any of them and as a result we are seeing crises in all of those areas. All the Tories care about is Europe and as such, they are doing a very good job at destroying their party and the country over the matter. When Brexit is all said and done I can see the Tories disappearing into the hinterlands for another 20 years.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...s-keep-winning

They are a centrist party. They have an amazing strategy. Doing just enough for an average Joe to vote for them. Staying in power is their strategy. Tories will never disappear. At best for the left, they'll split into two parties.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by freept)
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...s-keep-winning

They are a centrist party. They have an amazing strategy. Doing just enough for an average Joe to vote for them. Staying in power is their strategy. Tories will never disappear. At best for the left, they'll split into two parties.
I would hardly say that running a minority government (especially when they had a majority) was an amazing strategy. Theresa May is not thriving, she is surviving and only just. Sure - the Tories will always be around, but the current lot will be out for the count come the next election as long as the main opposition (who ever that be) runs with the campaign - how is the country a better place after 15 years of Tory rule, because I am struggling to find just one policy that has made our country better than it was in 2010. I am certainly a lot worse off than I was.
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freept
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I would hardly say that running a minority government (especially when they had a majority) was an amazing strategy. Theresa May is not thriving, she is surviving and only just. Sure - the Tories will always be around, but the current lot will be out for the count come the next election as long as the main opposition (who ever that be) runs with the campaign - how is the country a better place after 15 years of Tory rule, because I am struggling to find just one policy that has made our country better than it was in 2010. I am certainly a lot worse off than I was.
Her strategy wasn't to lose a majority, she's not a numpty. She underestimated the forces behind Corbyn.

The situation in which our country finds itself has been getting worse ever since Thatcher's first few years in government.

People will still vote Tory which, at best for the left, will lead to Labour minority government propped up by the SNP and a fall of the UK as we know it, or by the Lib Dems and a fall of Labour's policies as we know them now.

Capitalism is here to stay, and if you won't work hard (i.e. doing more than just putting in effort and working hard for 8-10 hrs a day), your situation will keep getting worse.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by freept)
Her strategy wasn't to lose a majority, she's not a numpty. She underestimated the forces behind Corbyn.

The situation in which our country finds itself has been getting worse ever since Thatcher's first few years in government.

People will still vote Tory which, at best for the left, will lead to Labour minority government propped up by the SNP and a fall of the UK as we know it, or by the Lib Dems and a fall of Labour's policies as we know them now.

Capitalism is here to stay, and if you won't work hard (i.e. doing more than just putting in effort and working hard for 8-10 hrs a day), your situation will keep getting worse.
Were you around in the 80s and 90s? Thatcher had a brief spell in the late 80s before a major recession and Tory sleaze and infighting nobbled the Tories for 17 years. During Tonys helm in the 90s / 00s we saw massive investment in public services and infrastructure and a general feel-good factor that lasted more or less a whole decade. And then the financial crash hit again but rather than making things better, the Tories have got themselves caught up in their favourite distraction, namely Europe. So whilst families are really struggling, the NHS is going to pot and teaching is seeing teachers leave left right and centre, not to mention a surge in crime, Tories are fighting amongst themselves about whether or not we should sack off trade deals with German, France and other major economies in favour of the ability to do a deal with Indonesia if we choose. They have lost the plot. Come next election, if there is no viable alternative to the Tory mire we are currently in I foresee either an upsurge in the likes of the Greens / Lib Dems or other protest votes, or the lowest turn out in history.
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