Notes for conservatives to learn from the left Watch

Davij038
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1: (most important)The left doesn’t care about principles it cares about winning.

Free speech? Democracy? Rule of law?

Human Rights? The left will cry foul and try and hold you to principles they don’t believe in.

One obvious example of this is when atheist liberals who eradicate Christianity try and lecture conservative Christians on bible scripture,



2/ Corporations don’t care (the free market)

It used to be the case that big companies used to lobby the government for less involvement. Those days have long ago ended and it benefits big corporations immensely for the government to step in- case on point- how many corporations are lobbying to stay in the single market and to weaken already mild immigration targets.

If labour offered them open borders as well as a few contracts and marijuana legislation, Corbyn will be a far more appealing vassal than the blairite Tory Party



3: feelings don’t care about your facts

For better or for worse emotion plays s lot better than facts. This is why the left has constructed this offence culture to negate the facts to suit their argument. Case in point, the use of that poor dead child that washed up on the beach was an emotional attack on those that champion border controls. We should respond in kind- ie posting pictures of the aftermath of the Manchester arena attacks. Harsh even monstrous? Yep, but see point 1. Be assured they will do the same no matter how tasteless




4: The system isn’t Broken, it’s doing what it’s supposed to do, that is: the de homogenisation of society in conjunction with the breakdown of the family and the church do that power can be concentrated in the hands of a few powerful elites who run the media, banks and establishment
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ByEeek
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Who is the left in your little rant? Certainly not Labour. Wasn't it Labour who bought in human rights, equal rights, disability rights, devolution and the supreme court?
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Who is the left in your little rant?
Certainly not Labour.
Labour are certainly included.

[wuote]
Wasn't it Labour who bought in human rights, equal rights, disability rights, devolution and the supreme court?[/QUOTE]

Yes, what’s your point and how does that go against what I said?
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CountBrandenburg
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Who is the left in your little rant? Certainly not Labour. Wasn't it Labour who bought in human rights, equal rights, disability rights, devolution and the supreme court?
The point being made here it is this same left that are hypocritical on all accounts with such ideas. The first point I think that Davij is making here is that Labour (or the modern left I guess) will seemingly use any point to make themselves more popular , just so as long as it isn’t a departure from left wing politics and it continues their narrative of breaking the status quo.
Not that I’d agree that with what’s being said here ( I’d personally want a more Thatcherite Conservative party once more, and embrace a slow change to the status quo then I think that’ll win some of the skeptics over)
I think at the end of the day Conservatives are unpopular because they don’t have much of a presence online over here. Look to America to find those supporting Trump ( online anyway) fully embracing meme culture and actually having a presence ( whilst individual politicians not as much, they are at least there) the left here in the UK have a much much bigger presence online than conservatives, and hence the effect is, I think anyway, is more people are likely to be drawn to these ideas and view the left in a more positive manor than conservatives.
That’s my thoughts anyway
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Davij038)
Labour are certainly included.

[wuote]
Wasn't it Labour who bought in human rights, equal rights, disability rights, devolution and the supreme court?
Yes, what’s your point and how does that go against what I said?[/QUOTE]

You said "the left" (massive sweeping statement as if all Labour supporters and those beyond think with one voice) are not concerned about principals - they are only concerned about winning. If that is the case, why did Labour bother with their devolution / human rights ./ equality laws? Surely, they are about as principled as you can get no? Then you start wittering on about liberals and religion. Just exactly what is your point of is this thread just a general left bashing thread?
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ChaoticButterfly
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err... don't copy us?

I think the left generally provides lessons in how not to do politics :laugh:

We could have done with the blind loyalty to our tribe the conservatvies are desplaying, if the rest of the labour party had got behind corbynism between 2015-2017, had there not been a couq, and had the party machine and all it's little wreckers follwed the leadership strategy during the 2017 GE election (this is the biggest crime that deserves deselection imo) Labour may well be in government now. The Labour party has too many dipshits that wpuld rather Labour lost and end the madness of Corbynism than actually win. They need booting out of the PLP and party beacracy, labour needs to be transformed by the democratic left.

Meanwhile the best Tory party wreckers can muster is voting against thier own sides hard fought for emendments.

(Original post by Davij038)
1: (most important)The left doesn’t care about principles it cares about winning.
What the actually ****ing planet are you living on? :confused:

Even the self proclaimed power before principle lot are now fighting Labour as much as the Tories over Brexit. They are suicidally bushing for an ignoring of the referendum result ffs. We have the spectacle of Alistair Cambell street protesting whilst the Marxists in Her Majesty's Opposition are being all strategic and triangulating over Brexit like a proper Blairite approach to electoral politics.

The 90s were just a blip where there was a group on the left that beleived the thirdway stuff with the ideology of any communist, but they were in the right place and time in history to rout the right with thier social liberalism.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by CountBrandenburg)
The first point I think that Davij is making here is that Labour (or the modern left I guess) will seemingly use any point to make themselves more popular , just so as long as it isn’t a departure from left wing politics and it continues their narrative of breaking the status quo.
You say that like it is a bad thing. Of course a political party wants to be popular. Surely that is the whole point no? The reason Tony Blair led his part to a landslide victory was because he moved Labour to the centre ground which attracted voters who don't generally vote Labour. And then with his mandate he was able to implement many left wing policies such as educational reforms and increased spending on the NHS, all of which the Tories have spent the last 10 years undoing and now look where we are.

I don't really understand where this idea that parties have to be one thing and should stick to that regardless of the political climate or society around. Things change. Ideas change. The world evolves. The smart parties are the ones that pick up on that change and bring in new policies. The irony of the current climate is that Labour have lurched to the left and the Tories have lurched to the right, hence a minority government and a majority of the country which typical aligns with the centre ground and isn't particularly partisan is now completely unrepresented.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)

You said "the left" (massive sweeping statement as if all Labour supporters and those beyond think with one voice) are not concerned about principals - they are only concerned about winning. If that is the case, why did Labour bother with their devolution / human rights ./ equality laws?


Surely, they are about as principled as you can get no? Then you start wittering on about liberals and religion. Just exactly what is your point of is this thread just a general left bashing thread?
I don’t know if you’re being deliberately thick.

Labour introduced those laws, which are part of their agenda after they had already won a sizeable majority.

Labour/ the left (including most tories) think with one voice on a wide degree of issues. They’ll passionately disagree with each other on the means to getting to their shared goals- eg liberal conservatives think that conservative means are the best way to achieve progressive ends.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Davij038)


If labour offered them open borders as well as a few contracts and marijuana legislation, Corbyn will be a far more appealing vassal than the blairite Tory Party
It is true Brexit is wedging buinsess support from the Tories. We got Boris Johnson telling buisness to go **** itself (literally said "**** buinsess" at the same time as marxist shadow chanceller John McDonnell going on a tea offensive to reasure capital. Brexit is doing crazy things to the UK.

This is nothing new though. The kind of socially liberal sections fo capital, eg financial capital in London, the big Phrama companies, the plain manufcators etc, are the sorts of capital that would support the Democrats in america. With the conservatives going down the right wing nationalist rout there is of course opputrinuty for Labour to cleave these sectiions of capital on side (atleast for the time being anyway). The lack of a Democrat style part in the UK right now (lol at the lib dems) is ****ing things up for capital. What is new is the suicidal Brexit tendancies of the Tory party being finally unleashed in all thier glory.

I suppose the Tories will always have the vacuumn cleaner man. But even then he wants his cheap open borders labour. Even your Brexit susupporting sections of the capital class hate your politics Davij. Your only hope is we go full fash. Your small state peleoconservatism, or whatever that thing actually is, will never get capital support. You need a strong authoratarian corpoaratism to bring capital in line and a strong left to scare the capitalists into your alien hating arms. That is the only way to defend what you hold dear and to save you and your family from commissar Ahmed ordering you all from your home.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
err... don't copy us?

I think the left generally provides lessons in how not to do politics :laugh:
See my above post.


We could have done with the blind loyalty to our tribe the conservatvies are desplaying, if the rest of the labour party had got behind corbynism between 2015-2017, had there not been a couq, and had the party machine and all it's little wreckers follwed the leadership strategy during the 2017 GE election (this is the biggest crime that deserves deselection imo) Labour may well be in government now. The Labour party has too many dipshits that wpuld rather Labour lost and end the madness of Corbynism than actually win. They need booting out of the PLP and party beacracy, labour needs to be transformed by the democratic left.

Meanwhile the best Tory party wreckers can muster is voting against thier own sides hard fought for
Amendment

It’s the complacency of victors. The Tories and labour do not see each other as a threat to all extents and purposes in the same way that the equivalent parties viewed say Trump or Le pen. If they were being fighting a candidate like that they would fall in line. But instead they’ve got This government celebrating how wonderful diversity is or about how they’re going to reduce inequality and they see no need to.


What the actually ****ing planet are you living on? :confused:

Even the self proclaimed power before principle lot are now fighting Labour as much as the Tories over Brexit. They are suicidally bushing for an ignoring of the referendum result ffs. We have the spectacle of Alistair Cambell street protesting whilst the Marxists in Her Majesty's Opposition are being all strategic and triangulating over Brexit like a proper Blairite approach to electoral politics.

The 90s were just a blip where there was a group on the left that beleived the thirdway stuff with the ideology of any communist, but they were in the right place and time in history to rout the right with thier social liberalism.
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Davij038
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(Original post by CountBrandenburg)
The point being made here it is this same left that are hypocritical on all accounts with such ideas. The first point I think that Davij is making here is that Labour (or the modern left I guess) will seemingly use any point to make themselves more popular , just so as long as it isn’t a departure from left wing politics and it continues their narrative of breaking the status quo.
Not that I’d agree that with what’s being said here ( I’d personally want a more Thatcherite Conservative party once more, and embrace a slow change to the status quo then I think that’ll win some of the skeptics over)
I think at the end of the day Conservatives are unpopular because they don’t have much of a presence online over here. Look to America to find those supporting Trump ( online anyway) fully embracing meme culture and actually having a presence ( whilst individual politicians not as much, they are at least there) the left here in the UK have a much much bigger presence online than conservatives, and hence the effect is, I think anyway, is more people are likely to be drawn to these ideas and view the left in a more positive manor than conservatives.
That’s my thoughts anyway
1; it’s not about making themselves look popular it’s about whatever benefits them and their ideals. If they had to do something unpopular to benefit their interests in the long term they would do it. Conservatives tend to have strict adherence to principles like property rights which should never be infringed in. The left do have principles but are willing to break them so long as it is for a greater good.

Case in point. Freedom of speech. The left will suppprt freedom of speech apart from if its one of their political opponents.

Question:

Why do you think that the Pro Trump people have an online presence in a way that the UK conservatives don’t?
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Davij038)
Labour/ the left (including most tories) think with one voice on a wide degree of issues.
Yeah - that sums up your position. As soon as you start classifying the left as the Tory party, in my eyes - well enough said. I am getting rather bored of these debates that talk about "the right" or "the left" in such sweeping terms. Such terms are meaningless especially when specific ideas are associated to "the left" or "the right" in a way that suggests that all people who lean that we unquestioningly support those ideas.
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That Bearded Man
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(Original post by CountBrandenburg)
The point being made here it is this same left that are hypocritical on all accounts with such ideas. The first point I think that Davij is making here is that Labour (or the modern left I guess) will seemingly use any point to make themselves more popular , just so as long as it isn’t a departure from left wing politics and it continues their narrative of breaking the status quo.
Not that I’d agree that with what’s being said here ( I’d personally want a more Thatcherite Conservative party once more, and embrace a slow change to the status quo then I think that’ll win some of the skeptics over)
I think at the end of the day Conservatives are unpopular because they don’t have much of a presence online over here. Look to America to find those supporting Trump ( online anyway) fully embracing meme culture and actually having a presence ( whilst individual politicians not as much, they are at least there) the left here in the UK have a much much bigger presence online than conservatives, and hence the effect is, I think anyway, is more people are likely to be drawn to these ideas and view the left in a more positive manor than conservatives.
That’s my thoughts anyway
Conservatism will never have the kind of youth activity you speak of, a belief in the status quo is hard to sell and there's nothing interesting that they offer.
The sell for Trump is that he isn't REALLY a Republican, he happily endorses republican policy but his image appeals to Americans of all ages (loud, overstated) than the Tories in England who represents the Tory electorate spot on.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Yeah - that sums up your position. As soon as you start classifying the left as the Tory party, in my eyes - well enough said.
In some ways I’m like a Communist complaining about both the two main parties, both generally support the capitalist system.

But instead I’m a conservative arguing about the social policy of both parties - both of which generally support the same liberal system


I am getting rather bored of these debates that talk about "the right" or "the left" in such sweeping terms. Such terms are meaningless especially when specific ideas are associated to "the left" or "the right" in a way that suggests that all people who lean that we unquestioningly support those ideas.
The BBC report Marine Le Pen as Far right and Theresa May as centrist/ or centre left - despite Le Pen being far more economically to the left than May. So I’m terms of the left that’s what I mean- and whilst it is simplistic and you can be pedantic about it generally people know what you mean.

The same way that when people say they don’t want immigration coming here they don’t tend to think about Japanese web developers despite that falling into the same bracket, and unless they’re being obtuse or disingenuous people who oppose this know what they mean.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Davij038)
1: (most important)The left doesn’t care about principles it cares about winning.

Free speech? Democracy? Rule of law?

Human Rights? The left will cry foul and try and hold you to principles they don’t believe in.

One obvious example of this is when atheist liberals who eradicate Christianity try and lecture conservative Christians on bible scripture,
Why do you refer to 'The Left' as though it were some homogeneous hive mind, whose members are all both responsible and supportive of whatever you're talking about?

Since when have the left been against democracy, rule of law and human rights? How are the left against freedom of speech any more than the right?

(Before you talk about hate speech laws, these have continuously been expanded by successive Labour and Conservative governments).

Your point (if you can even call it that) about religion is incoherent. Were you drunk when you wrote this? The rest of your post is just drivel, I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Davij038)
The BBC report Marine Le Pen as Far right and Theresa May as centrist/ or centre left - despite Le Pen being far more economically to the left than May. So I’m terms of the left that’s what I mean- and whilst it is simplistic and you can be pedantic about it generally people know what you mean.
I don't think they do. At least not if they don't know you. And I wouldn't say Teresa May were anywhere near the left. She is not a socialist by any measure. She has a knee that keeps jerking that way, but I don't think that is more about the weak position she finds herself in than anything else. But as you point out, a true political compass separates out social politics from economic politics. One can be conservative economically and liberal socially just as you can be communist economically and also authoritarian politically. How you boil that down to left / right / liberal is beyond me. Regardless I think it makes more sense to criticise individuals for their view points rather than "the left" or "the right". I would place myself on the left of centre and generally take umbridge to accusations that "the left" think on way or the other. I am an individual. I am not "the left".
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Davij038
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ByEeek
SHallowvale

I’ll reply to both your points together as they’re pretty similar in nature for the most part.

Q: why do you refer to the left as a homogenous entity?

A:
Because I believe on the big issues of society it largely acts as a homogenous entity and supports the social developments of the last few decades of social liberalisation, increased immigration, multiculturalism and the rise of international institutions such as the UN.

Of course there may be differencrs of opinion on foreign and economic policy but ultimately they are pursuing the same end goal of ‘progress’ - which ultimately unites people as seemingly disparate as Angela Merkel, Jeremy Corbyn and Hilary Clinton.

You can make the same argument for the ‘right’ which includes people as seemingly disparate as Le Pen, Trump and maybe even Xi Jinping.

This may start to sound crazy but if you pay attention it starts to make sense. For instance consider how Trotskyists ended up as Neoconservatives or how supppsed ‘conservstive’ Thinkers such as Hayek considered themselves radicals and promoted things like prostitution and drug legislation
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HighOnGoofballs
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Who is the left in your little rant? Certainly not Labour. Wasn't it Labour who bought in human rights, equal rights, disability rights, devolution and the supreme court?
Looks like someone has just completed their Year 12 Politics syllabus. /s

Labour didn't 'bring in' human rights. They simply enshrined the provisions of the ECHR into the HRA 1998. They only did that so they could gain political momentum and avoid having to create a codified constitution, which would have been much much better, at least in my opinion.

What equal rights - give some examples? I know the Tories introduced the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Equalities Act 2010 and the legalisation of gay marriage, all the while propping up 2 women for the role of PM, can't remember Labour making any MAJOR additions...could be wrong though.

Devolution - sure; that was good, as well as the Supreme Court.
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HighOnGoofballs
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(Original post by Davij038)
how supppsed ‘conservstive’ Thinkers such as Hayek considered themselves radicals and promoted things like prostitution and drug legislation
Hayek was only economically Conservative, you could say, broadly. He very very much socially liberal.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
What equal rights - give some examples? I know the Tories introduced the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Equalities Act 2010 and the legalisation of gay marriage, all the while propping up 2 women for the role of PM, can't remember Labour making any MAJOR additions...could be wrong though.

Devolution - sure; that was good, as well as the Supreme Court.
Have you not heard of the Equalities Act 2010? You should look it up. It outlaws discrimination on the basis of sex, gender, race etc etc etc
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