Sex and gender should be the same thing Watch

Dandaman1
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In everyday, informal nomenclature, sex and gender are used interchangeably. Men are males, women are females. However, some like to point out that sex is biological and gender is social. Therefore, a male woman is possible and people can change their gender identity as they please.

However, I think this concept of gender is losing its meaning and utility. We know a man does not necessarily have to like the same things as other men or think and behave in the same way. Some are more masculine, others more feminine. Additionally, now anyone can also call themselves a man if they feel like it, with what it means to feel "like a man" apparently being subjective and different from person to person. It also changes somewhat from culture to culture. On top of this, we are seeing new 'genders' and gender expressions, many with seemingly small, arbitrary and subjective differences that overlap with one another. So what's the point? This clearly isn't useful as an identifier.

That's why I think it would be best if sex and gender were not treated as separate concepts. There really is no use in 'man' and 'male' meaning different things (for humans). We only have to acknowledge that not all men are the same in society and between cultures. The same goes for women. As stated previously, sex and gender are already used interchangeably in everyday speech, so why not keep it that way? Not to mention, it would put an end to the incredibly confusing and ridiculous list of trendy new gender identities.

EDIT: Lots of people have apparently misunderstood my argument (see below). To clarify, what I am saying is that gender identities should be discarded, as they are too subjective and inconsistent to be meaningful or practical. Instead, we should simply have a sexual binary and acknowledge that men and women do not have to fit any standard molds. There would therefore be no need to have anything other than men and women, and men and women would be free to express themselves in the way they choose without having to 'transition' or create any gender identities, as gender would cease to be used as an identity concept.
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AperfectBalance
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Exactly.
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Captain Haddock
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You've worked yourself into such a paddy over this whole gender thing that you've gone full circle and started using the reasons why there should be a distinction between sex and gender as reasons why there shouldn't be one.
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chazwomaq
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Interesting argument but I don't think I agree. The vast majority of men feel male and women female. But there are some rare cases where a woman just feels like she isn't a woman (or vice versa), probably as result of neurological masculinzation (or lack of). So in these rare cases I can understand a difference between sex and gender.

(Original post by Dandaman1)
However, some like to point out that sex is biological and gender is social. Therefore, a male woman is possible and people can change their gender identity as they please.
I think this is a huge flaw in "some"'s logic. Sex is biological, sure, but so is gender. As far as we can tell, testosterone is really important in people's gender identity. And anyway, even if something were purely social, that doesn't mean you can change it as you please. For example, the concept of a country is a social construct: that doesn't mean you can claim Ukraine is Russia (Vladimir!). Even something that looks very biological like the species concept is a bit fuzzy and socially constructed. That doesn't mean you can claim a pussycat is a puma (or even a bulldog a beagle even though their genes are the same).

So I don't think everyone should be able to identify as they please. And while it's kind of true that gender roles vary somewhat across cultures, gender identity doesn't - every culture has recognised male and female, with the very occasional extra gender. Many aspects of gender rules are very similar across cultures too.

So I still think they're useful as distinct concepts, even though most of the time they are synonymous.
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Joleee
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gender is useless. i reckon we'll get rid of it eventually, but it will take another 30 years.
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Acsel
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I don't think it's strictly true that sex and gender should be the same thing. What you are biologically is fairly fixed and there isn't much ambiguity. How you feel as a person is more of a scale. Unfortunately due to gender stereotypes, the rock music loving lumberjack is "more manly" than the nerdy bookworm. I do completely agree that this distinction of spectrum is pointless because it really doesn't matter "how manly you are". But because these gender stereotypes exist, there's also a requirement to have some way to describe it. Making sex synonymous with gender means we have no way to describe things that are ultimately rooted into our society.

That said, I don't think all this stuff about the hundreds of different genders is rubbish. Just like how manly you are is pointless, I really don't care if you identify as an attack helicopter. I completely agree that the concept of gender is out of control and losing meaning. I'd be fine if it were abandoned completely. But because it exists, we need a way of describing it. Even if you don't care about the however many genders we apparenlty have now, you'll will still differentiate between male and female genders. Even when it goes away completely, you need a word to describe the historical meaning.

Word definitions change all the time. Even if the concept of gender is out of control right now, removing the word or making it mean something else doesn't solve that. The root cause of the problem needs to be addressed.
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lTchaikovsky
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(Original post by chazwomaq)
Sex is biological, sure, but so is gender.
Kind of. Gender is part biological, part social construct.
There are differences between male and female brains. This trend can also be seen in trans individuals, especially in MtF trans.
On the other side, trends such as clothes, hobbies... etc assigned to a gender are social constructs. Blue hasn't always been a boys color, for example. We just assigned it to boys.
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Dandaman1
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
You've worked yourself into such a paddy over this whole gender thing that you've gone full circle and started using the reasons why there should be a distinction between sex and gender as reasons why there shouldn't be one.
Care to explain?
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
In everyday, informal nomenclature, sex and gender are used interchangeably.
Weight and mass are also used interchangeably in everyday life.

Thankfully physicists don't use every day understandings and meanings when they launch rockets into space lol

Your post can be safely placed into the bin.
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Sahyun
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I'd say scrap gender entirely, or else keep whatever you believe you are to yourself. No need for such high fantasy identifications, otherwise I would be playing an mmorpg such as World of Warcraft.
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lTchaikovsky
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Nice post, OP, but I have to disagree. Just like ChaoticButterfly said, gender and sex aren't the same thing, even if they're used interchangeably.
The problem is that, gender and sex are different things.
To make it simple, sex it's what you have between your legs, and gender is what you have inside your school. You can't really use these terms interchangeable unless you think with your genitals.
It seems like a great idea at first, but you're really asking to erase gender completely.
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Captain Haddock
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
Care to explain?
Your OP acknowledges that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' mean different things to different people and different cultures. Great. Well, as it happens, this is precisely why 'gender' exists as an idea separate to 'sex'. It's just that for some reason instead of realising that this might be something worth studying for its own sake, it seems you've decided it's all just too darn confusing to be worth thinking about and therefore we should just forget the whole thing.
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Dandaman1
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(Original post by lTchaikovsky)
Nice post, OP, but I have to disagree. Just like ChaoticButterfly said, gender and sex aren't the same thing, even if they're used interchangeably.
The problem is that, gender and sex are different things.
To make it simple, sex it's what you have between your legs, and gender is what you have inside your school. You can't really use these terms interchangeable unless you think with your genitals.
It seems like a great idea at first, but you're really asking to erase gender completely.
I acknowledge this in my first paragraph. I am already aware that the two are different. But my entire post is an argument for why they shouldn't be. Sex is clear, defined and tells us what we need to know. Gender, on the other hand, is becoming ambiguous, interchangeable, subjective, and generally useless as an identifying characteristic as a result. Ergo, we should simply use gender to mean sex (as it often is) instead of a wishy-washy system of interchangeable and subjective social criteria.
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Dandaman1
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Weight and mass are also used interchangeably in everyday life.

Thankfully physicists don't use every day understandings and meanings when they launch rockets into space lol

Your post can be safely placed into the bin.
Weight and mass both have their own uses. I've just argued that gender (in the current school of social thought) does not due to its subjectivity, interchangeability, unpredictability and lack of uniformity. It isn't a good identity tool. Therefore, we should discard it and simply use the terms man and woman synonymously with male and female instead of needlessly trying to separate them.

Oh, and I'll take my post out of the bin and tell you to go screw yourself, if it's going to be like that. Thanks.
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Dandaman1
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Your OP acknowledges that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' mean different things to different people and different cultures. Great. Well, as it happens, this is precisely why 'gender' exists as an idea separate to 'sex'. It's just that for some reason instead of realising that this might be something worth studying for its own sake, it seems you've decided it's all just too darn confusing to be worth thinking about and therefore we should just forget the whole thing.
Gender exists as an identity tool. When somebody says he is a man, we are supposed to know what that means, otherwise there is no point. If we we are heading in a direction that anyone can identify themselves as a man for whatever reason, and a man could be anything, then the term has no utility as an identifier. It doesn't mean anything anymore.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that 'man' should simply mean 'adult human male' (as it already does to most people) instead of trying to devorce it from that. It would be more helpful and practical to have it synonymous with sex instead of it being used alongside an almost infinite list of other 'genders' that attempt to describe an increasingly variable, subjective, and interchangeable set of social criteria. A man should just be an adult, human male. Simple, understandable, universal, defined.
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Onde
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I imagine there are some people who would wish for the English language to be reduced from a million words to a thousand.
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Trapmoneybenny
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Stupid world we live in... you fools have rejected God and have inevitably plunged yourselves into chaos and confusion. How progressive you all are, you can't call a woman a woman and a man a man anymore, heck these fools don't even want to be men or women anymore.

Brave new world, enjoy it, because as history clearly shows, it will inevitably collapse and start from zero again, no society every survives without order
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mojojojo101
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Gender as a social tool / construct / whatever you need to call it has outlived its usefulness and just as other concepts have been abandoned so should gender to allow us as a society to better improve the lives of ourselves and others.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
Weight and mass both have their own uses. I've just argued that gender (in the current school of social thought) does not due to its subjectivity, interchangeability, unpredictability and lack of uniformity. It isn't a good identity tool. Therefore, we should discard it and simply use the terms man and woman synonymously with male and female instead of needlessly trying to separate them.
I'm saying the difference between gender and sex exist in anthropology, and for good reason.

Post is still in the bin I am afraid. Trans rights are not going away :kiss:

Also cap'n haddock has dealt with your self defeating arguments.

Just chill out and let trans people do their thing. There are bigger things to worry about.
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Axiomasher
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I don't know why some people have so much trouble with this. Societies invariably have a set of social expectations (sometimes demands) and cultural practices which are associated with the biological sex division, hence 'gender' being conventionally understood as 'male' or 'female' but which is not automatically determined by biology. It's (stereo)typical for women to wear skirts, heels and lipstick in some societies but they aren't born with these things, these things aren't biological characteristics, men can choose to wear skirts, heels and lipstick but will still be, biologically, men..
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