username1450924
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#21
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#21
The party of remain has come out of its shell at last. I am glad I fought tooth and nail for the brexit people voted for whilst in the party, and it is a shame on the same day you return to liberal 'democrats', you decide the will of the people is only important if you and your policies are the will.
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04MR17
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Tommy1boy)
The party of remain has come out of its shell at last. I am glad I fought tooth and nail for the brexit people voted for whilst in the party, and it is a shame on the same day you return to liberal 'democrats', you decide the will of the people is only important if you and your policies are the will.
Pretending support of 51% gives any opposition viewpoint no ground to stand on is foolish.

Pushing the 49% of others into a hard Brexit is foolish and divisive.
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Saunders16
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#23
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#23
AbT the Watson fuxtwais thus aht
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PetrosAC
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#24
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#24
Snufkín will proxy for Lumos_ for a few days

Jammy Duel
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Saunders16
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#25
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#25
eBay a drciibt rjfaraaameht
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Jammy Duel
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#26
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#26
(Original post by PetrosAC)
Snufkín will proxy for Lumos_ for a few days

Jammy Duel
Is he accepting the mass PM?
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PetrosAC
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Is he accepting the mass PM?
Yeah, no issue
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username1751857
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#28
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#28
(Original post by 04MR17)
Pretending support of 51% gives any opposition viewpoint no ground to stand on is foolish.

Pushing the 49% of others into a hard Brexit is foolish and divisive.
How is it any less divisive and foolish with the great alternatives you propose?
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04MR17
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#29
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#29
(Original post by CoffeeGeek)
How is it any less divisive and foolish with the great alternatives you propose?
And what alternatives am I proposing?
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CatusStarbright
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#30
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#30
I look forward to seeing where this rebrand goes and congrats to 04MR17 on his appointment.
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Saracen's Fez
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#31
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I take it this is the official turning point where the Lib Dem name becomes more of a plus than a minus for attracting the student vote again.
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username1751857
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#32
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#32
(Original post by 04MR17)
And what alternatives am I proposing?
That's something you're supposed to answer not me.
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CoffeeAndPolitics
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#33
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#33
Congrats 04MR17 on your appointment as Deputy Leader of TSR Liberal Democrats.
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04MR17
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#34
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#34
(Original post by CoffeeGeek)
That's something you're supposed to answer not me.
You seemed to know by saying "the great alternatives you propose". I question your use of the plural.

It's something I've already answered several times. I read a 51% victory as a clear need for a soft Brexit. Not remain. Not a hard Brexit. There are solutions between the two which are less polarising.
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Snufkin
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
I take it this is the official turning point where the Lib Dem name becomes more of a plus than a minus for attracting the student vote again.
Yeah. Students will return to the flock, hard-brexit-Corbyn and his merry band of antisemites will ensure that.
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username1751857
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#36
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(Original post by 04MR17)
You seemed to know by saying "the great alternatives you propose". I question your use of the plural.

It's something I've already answered several times. I read a 51% victory as a clear need for a soft Brexit. Not remain. Not a hard Brexit. There are solutions between the two which are less polarising.
I assumed they were great and I assumed they were more than one - am I not allowed to make assumptions? If my assumptions are wrong, can't you bring yourself to correct them?

Well firstly it wasn't 51%. Secondly, how does a victory like that suggest that a soft Brexit is needed? If the victory was any larger then would that mean a hard Brexit is needed and why?

It's not any less polarising. If you go for a soft Brexit you'll upset Remain voters (because they might not want a Brexit at all) and Brexit voters (because they might want a hard Brexit) and if you go for a hard Brexit you still end up upsetting both voters. If you end up remaining you upset the majority which voted for Brexit - which is arguably even more divisive and extremely foolish.
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04MR17
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#37
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#37
(Original post by CoffeeGeek)
I assumed they were great and I assumed they were more than one - am I not allowed to make assumptions? If my assumptions are wrong, can't you bring yourself to correct them?

Well firstly it wasn't 51%. Secondly, how does a victory like that suggest that a soft Brexit is needed? If the victory was any larger then would that mean a hard Brexit is needed and why?

It's not any less polarising. If you go for a soft Brexit you'll upset Remain voters (because they might not want a Brexit at all) and Brexit voters (because they might want a hard Brexit) and if you go for a hard Brexit you still end up upsetting both voters. If you end up remaining you upset the majority which voted for Brexit - which is arguably even more divisive and extremely foolish.
You can make assumptions but it feels like a pretty pointless thing to do without any basis...

Err.... what was the leave vote result then?

Because it demonstrates there is clearly a significant pro-Europe sentiment with almost half of voters, and a very split vote indicates that a complete separation from the EU (or close to it with a hard Brexit) would go completely against that. In exactly the same way that remaining would go completely against the oher half of voters who supported Brexit. A soft Brexit would support the decision of a wafer thin majority of voters who voted leave, yet respect that a very large proportion of people wanted us to stay close with Europe.

You pretend that all remain voters would rather remain in the EU than accept the referendum result. This is not the case. "Because they might want a hard brexit" is speculation since it was not voted on. The referendum did not give a prescription on the ballot box for what Brexit will look like. Pretending that 51% of voters support hard brexit is nonesense.
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username1751857
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#38
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#38
(Original post by 04MR17)
You can make assumptions but it feels like a pretty pointless thing to do without any basis...

Err.... what was the leave vote result then?

Because it demonstrates there is clearly a significant pro-Europe sentiment with almost half of voters, and a very split vote indicates that a complete separation from the EU (or close to it with a hard Brexit) would go completely against that. In exactly the same way that remaining would go completely against the oher half of voters who supported Brexit. A soft Brexit would support the decision of a wafer thin majority of voters who voted leave, yet respect that a very large proportion of people wanted us to stay close with Europe.
Rounded up it's 52% voted to Leave not 51%. Not that it makes a massive difference to what we're discussing but it's good to get the figures right...

It wouldn't support the decision of the majority of voters and it also wouldn't respect the Remain voters who would rather just stay in the EU (which is why they voted Remain in the first place...). It's still very divisive.

You pretend that all remain voters would rather remain in the EU than accept the referendum result. This is not the case. "Because they might want a hard brexit" is speculation since it was not voted on. The referendum did not give a prescription on the ballot box for what Brexit will look like. Pretending that 51% of voters support hard brexit is nonesense.
I didn't say all remain voters would rather remain in the EU, I was referring to a group of Remain voters. Then isn't the idea that "a very large proportion of people wanted us to stay close with Europe" also speculation? Staying close with the EU is a bit different to being in the EU. People could have voted Brexit for the same reason, to leave the EU but stay close with the EU - but that's just speculation I guess...

What have I written that suggests "51%" of voters support hard Brexit? What I'm trying to say is that even if we go for a soft Brexit it will still be divisive. You're trying to argue that going for a soft Brexit is less divisive but you're also speculating by assuming Remain voters voted because they wanted to "stay close" with Europe. Which is not true because there's a large group of Remain voters who voted Remain because they wanted to stay in the EU. My point is that they're both very divisive options (which one is more or less divisive will involve speculation and there's nothing wrong with that) but better than ignoring the will of the people and not leaving the EU at all...
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Saunders16
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#39
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#39
(Original post by 04MR17)
Because it demonstrates there is clearly a significant pro-Europe sentiment with almost half of voters
I am just stepping in to add that a Remain vote should not be considered a mark of pro-Europe sentiment. Indeed, the UK has never been comparable to other European countries due to our reluctance to support closer ties with Europe (take the failed adoption of the Euro).

In most cases I believe Remain voters would be happy with EEA/EFTA membership; while leaving means different things to people, I highly doubt many people in the UK could be described as pro-Europe. The Remain campaign itself was not particularly optimistic, instead focusing on the economy above ideological, internationalist arguments.
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04MR17
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Saunders16)
I am just stepping in to add that a Remain vote should not be considered a mark of pro-Europe sentiment. Indeed, the UK has never been comparable to other European countries due to our reluctance to support closer ties with Europe (take the failed adoption of the Euro).

In most cases I believe Remain voters would be happy with EEA/EFTA membership; while leaving means different things to people, I highly doubt many see people in the UK could be described as pro-Europe. The Remain campaign itself was not particularly optimistic, instead focusing on the economy above ideological, internationalist arguments.
Take pro-Europe to mean pro-EU sentiment. I don't mean to compare Britain to other countries in Europe. And I agree that most remain voters may well be satisfied with EEA/EFTA membership as a compromise.
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