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The majority of medical students come from affluent neighbourhoods.

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Reply 40
Original post by Princepieman
The working class is like 60-65% of the working population, so that's what ~7-8% of the total population who make it? Sounds like an outlier to me.

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Nope, ABC1 are over 50% of the population.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/feb/26/uk-more-middle-class-than-working-class-2000-data


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Reply 41
Original post by Mikardo88
Only in the sense that it is difficult to better yourself. I mean that’s pretty damn obvious.

What it doesn’t prove however is that we are all in a power game dominated by a patriarchal society where everyone is held back by old men in suits. Our society has its flaws. We all know that. But if you can prove your competency in any field then you will go far. Employers want highly skilled people. They don’t care if you are born in Dunstable or Cambridge if you can prove your worth.


i didn't try to prove that. is that what you thought or are you talking to yourself now? :confused:


already looked into this.. the lower end of what they refer to as "middle class" isn't middle class. technicians, secretary's, supervisors etc may be deemed as lower middle class but they're imo still working class. you'll also find that C makes up a pretty big chunk of that supposed "55%".. which brings me back to my point. the real middle class and above is only really 30-35% of the population in the UK (and the US for that matter, but maybe pushing it to ~40% for them).

Only really A and B are middle/upper middle (aka the real middle class and above).

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(edited 5 years ago)
BUMP. I want more please.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by xdopaminex
Discuss. How can we widen access to medicine for people in poorer neighbourhoods? I actually have found this by reading an article from The Guardian.

Website:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/22/medical-school-students-wealthy-backgrounds


I live in one of the worst areas in my city - it has a band 1 on both POLAR3 and POLAR4 scales, which basically just means that it's a pretty bad area.
I'm planning on applying for medicine for next year and hopefully the contextualized offers scheme will help me with my application process - BUT, I've heard that a lot of medical school can be discriminatory and prefer students from a better background. Hopefully, things are improving...
Reply 45
Original post by haseeb_jarral
BUT, I've heard that a lot of medical school can be discriminatory and prefer students from a better background. Hopefully, things are improving...


That's *definitely* not the case. If anything, coming from a disadvantaged area is in your favour.

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Original post by Just my opinion

You'll never find the child of an affluent family cleaning the toilets at a university, but you will find plenty of them studying to be doctors, lawyers, dentist's, etc.


Not true. I'm from titled aristocracy (Granny) but I've cleaned toilets and offices, worked in pubs and packing in factories. Ive also worked in the public sector (emergency services) and now I'm an at home parent with 3 children, 1 being visually impaired, I married a miners son and live in an area in the bottom 1% in the country of deprived areas. We've never had a nanny or private education. As it happens all my cousins are the same. Several work in factories, a few carers, a few nurses, a fire officer and a few administrators. Granny felt we should all earn our way in the world and we've never received any help in life. No one in my family has studied to be a lawyer/doctor/dentist at any prestigious university although my son rather likes the idea of studying medicine. We know a good few families that are very wealthy and they pretty much follow the same ideas. Your opinion is very old fashioned.
Original post by Doonesbury
That's *definitely* not the case. If anything, coming from a disadvantaged area is in your favour.

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Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and contextualized offers definitely help improve many people's chances of getting into medical schools.
However, at the interview stage, surely the students from privileged backgrounds/private schooling - who emphasize public speaking and the soft-skills required in interviews, would perform better compared to the less privileged applicants.
I may not be correct (as I didn't attend a private school myself) but the ability to construct and critically appraise a logical argument is more developed and apparent for these students, which works in their favour. In comparison to this, many other schools tend to focus more on academia and often these soft skills get overlooked.

Original post by Volibear
And where did you hear this from exactly?


It came from something I read in an article a while ago.
I did read this on the BMJ website though, and it is on a similar topic...

"Less affluent children are less likely to apply to medical school and get in. Only 7% of pupils in the UK are educated privately, but they compose a quarter of medical students doing their first degree."
https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1916?ijkey=64d974264be3a566b2bfe410d3aa663a44b5da14&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

I mean it could obviously be due to chance but statistics support this for the past 2 decades.
Reply 48
Original post by haseeb_jarral
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and contextualized offers definitely help improve many people's chances of getting into medical schools.
However, at the interview stage, surely the students from privileged backgrounds/private schooling - who emphasize public speaking and the soft-skills required in interviews, would perform better compared to the less privileged applicants.
I may not be correct (as I didn't attend a private school myself) but the ability to construct and critically appraise a logical argument is more developed and apparent for these students, which works in their favour. In comparison to this, many other schools tend to focus more on academia and often these soft skills get overlooked.



It came from something I read in an article a while ago.
I did read this on the BMJ website though, and it is on a similar topic...

"Less affluent children are less likely to apply to medical school and get in. Only 7% of pupils in the UK are educated privately, but they compose a quarter of medical students doing their first degree."
https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1916?ijkey=64d974264be3a566b2bfe410d3aa663a44b5da14&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

I mean it could obviously be due to chance but statistics support this for the past 2 decades.


No. The point that disadvantaged pupils often don't *apply* to medschools is what we are discussing in this thread. But there's no way certain medschools *prefer* private schools pupils over others if/when they apply.

For example, Cambridge has good data that academically equivalent students do equally well no matter what their school background.
https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/admissions-research/school-background
Original post by xdopaminex
How can we widen access to medicine for people in poorer neighbourhoods?


Why do we need to? In this country there are no bars to a higher education outside of academic ability. If poorer people aren’t studying medicine it’s likely because they don’t want to or they don’t have the academic ability.
Ban private schools, ban grammar schools, ban the very good state schools the middle class swarm and drive the house prices around, ban private tutors, ban foreign students taking all these new places and take people away from their parents at birth and give them randomly assigned government foster parents.

Although in all seriousness having grew up in a **** hole, the main issues are abusive and/or unsupportive parents who don't see the point in education and hence never encourage their children to try, and only really having 1 chance at it. E.g. if you're born into the lower class and have messed up a year that's it your parents are going to pressure you to get a job or will just kick you out and you need one to avoid being homeless. Vs middle class people I knew growing up whose parents just sent them back to resit over and over again until they passed.

Best way of solving this would be too tell the teachers who work at schools in **** holes to be much more encouraging instead of passively looking down on their students as future benefits leech's, criminals etc. I had one teacher at secondary who was really like that and students did much better in his classes because they actually tried.
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Reply 51
Original post by Underscore__
Why do we need to? In this country there are no bars to a higher education outside of academic ability. If poorer people aren’t studying medicine it’s likely because they don’t want to or they don’t have the academic ability.


...or they didn't think it was a possibility for the "likes of them".

If the later wasn't a reality then outreach wouldn't be needed at all, and yet (nearly?) everyone agrees it is.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Doonesbury
...or they didn't think it was a possibility for the "likes of them".

If the later wasn't a reality then outreach wouldn't be needed at all, and yet (nearly?) everyone agrees it is.


But why would someone think that? Anyone can go to school, get good grades and apply for university. What barrier do people think exists to stop them becoming doctors?

Who’s everyone? Even if that is the case people agreeing on something isn’t evidence of something being true
Original post by Underscore__
Why do we need to? In this country there are no bars to a higher education outside of academic ability. If poorer people aren’t studying medicine it’s likely because they don’t want to or they don’t have the academic ability.


I dont think you understand the issues poorer students have with accessing a good education.

My local high school is in the bottom 2% in the country for performance. Their GCSE pass rate is averaging 25%. This is an improvement on their low of 7% a few years back. Its the only school for miles around and the staff deal with some of the most deprived children in the country with almost 2000 children attending. The school has a very high turnover of staff which doesn't help.

Last year the school celebrated 3 students gaining a place at University for the first time ever. Those students received contextual offers for their courses but of only 1 grade below standard entry requirements. I've seen courses in clearing dropping by 1 grade compared with the published grades so hardly a concession for them. They did not go to Russell Group Universities or any considered to be particularly 'good'.

Are you suggesting that intelligence alone will enable a student to gain a place studying medicine?

Not all poorer students will have access to a good education so they are not actually able to consider coursed like medicine or engineering.

Even if by some miracle they do have the potential to study medicine their home life may prevent it. They could be carers for parents/siblings, maybe needed to work to support their household financially and university is just not right, they might face isolation from their families who might view university as something for rich/posh people (this is the view locally) and not for people like them. Theres hundreds of reasons why poorer people cannot realistically apply to study medicine etc

There are huge barriers in place if you are poor but the Universities are already doing a lot, although the Oxbridge teams have never visited my local high school but they have visited the neighbouring towns with their 'good' and 'outstanding' schools. The issues start in primary schools and escalate at high school. This is where direct action is needed.
Reply 54
Original post by Underscore__
But why would someone think that? Anyone can go to school, get good grades and apply for university. What barrier do people think exists to stop them becoming doctors?


The fact is it's true. You can see posts above from pupils in exactly that situation.
Original post by Doonesbury
The fact is it's true. You can see posts above from pupils in exactly that situation.


That's their problem, if you think so irrationally I'm not sure you should be a doctor.

Original post by MadamePompadour
I dont think you understand the issues poorer students have with accessing a good education.

My local high school is in the bottom 2% in the country for performance. Their GCSE pass rate is averaging 25%. This is an improvement on their low of 7% a few years back. Its the only school for miles around and the staff deal with some of the most deprived children in the country with almost 2000 children attending. The school has a very high turnover of staff which doesn't help.

Last year the school celebrated 3 students gaining a place at University for the first time ever. Those students received contextual offers for their courses but of only 1 grade below standard entry requirements. I've seen courses in clearing dropping by 1 grade compared with the published grades so hardly a concession for them. They did not go to Russell Group Universities or any considered to be particularly 'good'.

Are you suggesting that intelligence alone will enable a student to gain a place studying medicine?


What's the name of this school? I find it hard to believe that such an awful school exists in this country.

Original post by MadamePompadour
Not all poorer students will have access to a good education so they are not actually able to consider coursed like medicine or engineering.


I don't disagree that state schools, on the whole, need to improve but unfortunately those people who don't have the academic ability, whether through sub-standard education or otherwise, can't become doctors. The only thing that is going to change that is a better education system.

Original post by MadamePompadour
Even if by some miracle they do have the potential to study medicine their home life may prevent it. They could be carers for parents/siblings, maybe needed to work to support their household financially and university is just not right, they might face isolation from their families who might view university as something for rich/posh people (this is the view locally) and not for people like them. Theres hundreds of reasons why poorer people cannot realistically apply to study medicine etc


Yes, some are carers but how could you enable those people to go to university?

If at 18/19 people can't get past their parents saying university is for posh people then I'm not sure a course like medicine is for them.

Original post by MadamePompadour
There are huge barriers in place if you are poor but the Universities are already doing a lot, although the Oxbridge teams have never visited my local high school but they have visited the neighbouring towns with their 'good' and 'outstanding' schools. The issues start in primary schools and escalate at high school. This is where direct action is needed.


Well if your school is as bad as you say a visit from Oxbridge would have been a waste of time.
Reply 56
Original post by Underscore__
That's their problem, if you think so irrationally I'm not sure you should be a doctor.



What's the name of this school? I find it hard to believe that such an awful school exists in this country.



I don't disagree that state schools, on the whole, need to improve but unfortunately those people who don't have the academic ability, whether through sub-standard education or otherwise, can't become doctors. The only thing that is going to change that is a better education system.



Yes, some are carers but how could you enable those people to go to university?

If at 18/19 people can't get past their parents saying university is for posh people then I'm not sure a course like medicine is for them.



Well if your school is as bad as you say a visit from Oxbridge would have been a waste of time.


Are you from a demographic with a low rate of university progression and/or attended a poorly performing school (bottom 40%)?

Maybe watch this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09s0m53
Edit: no longer on iPlayer but it's on Daily Motion
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6etpr8
worth 46 minutes of your time...

Reviewed here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/bbc-series-tracks-lives-of-six-underprivileged-and-gifted-13-year-olds

The point is, age 18/19 is often too late to realistically consider medicine.

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(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Doonesbury
Are you from a demographic with a low rate of university progression and/or attended a poorly performing school (bottom 40%)?

Maybe watch this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09s0m53

Reviewed here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/bbc-series-tracks-lives-of-six-underprivileged-and-gifted-13-year-olds

The point is, age 18/19 is often too late to realistically consider medicine.

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So, we do see a cycle of poverty amongst the poor. This is really sad. No wonder I have a negative outlook on life.

If you're parents have finished university then it's very obvious that your likelihood of getting into medicine will be higher. You will have support from your parents financially and academically. Whereas, if your parents did not go to university you will not get either of those mentioned earlier. Even if you are hard-working, you are limited to what your parents have.
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Reply 58
Original post by xdopaminex
So, we do see a cycle of poverty amongst the poor. This is really sad.

If you're parents have finished university then it's very obvious that your likelihood of getting into medicine will be higher. You will have support from your parents financially and academically. Whereas, if your parents did not go to university you will not get neither of those mentioned earlier.


People do break the cycle all the time, and Outreach etc does help.

But not enough.
Original post by Doonesbury
Are you from a demographic with a low rate of university progression and/or attended a poorly performing school (bottom 40%)?

Maybe watch this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09s0m53

Reviewed here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/bbc-series-tracks-lives-of-six-underprivileged-and-gifted-13-year-olds

The point is, age 18/19 is often too late to realistically consider medicine.

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No I'm not but I don't see why that makes my opinion any less valid.

1. It's 59 minutes long
2. It says it's unavailable

It's not too late if you've already been a good student, getting good grades and you have an inclination toward subjects that lend themselves toward medicine and besides you only have to do that standing up to your parents part when you actually reach 18/19

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