The Student Room Group

GDL or LLB for (US) international students hoping to become lawyers?

I'm looking at GDL and LLB programmes in the UK and wondering whether a GDL will be adequate to start a law career in the UK or whether it would be best to apply to LLB programmes.

Do you need an LLM as well in order to practise law in the UK?

Is it possible to earn an LLM after a GDL?

Is a GDL functionally equivalent to an LLB?

Is an LLB functionally equivalent to a JD?

Would an LLB be more attractive to potential employers than a GDL?

Is an LLM necessary?

If it isn't absolutely essential, would an LLM still distinguish me enough on the job market to be worth the investment of time and money?

In any of these programmes, would there be time to do volunteer work?

If I plan to do work relating to international law, is an LLM advisable?

How much more would it cost me to do law school in the UK versus the US?

Are there any scholarships available to international law students in the UK?

If I decide to the US after I've completed my education, would a GDL qualify me to take the California bar exam?

What is the minimum amount of schooling I need in order to earn the equivalent to a JD in the UK?


Background: US-born, but lived in Cornwall briefly as a child and have always dreamt of going back. My "gap year" became several years of volunteer work, but I finally graduated summa *** laude at the age of 24 from a good (top 20) university in the US with a (useless) B.A. in Sociology last Spring. Currently taking another year to do volunteer work and apply to schools. Since I've taken so long to earn a degree, a shorter programme would be preferable. Ultimately, I'm hoping to work for an INGO and plan to live in the UK (though I suppose it's possible that I'll return to the US in the distant future.)
(edited 5 years ago)
I think ICJ and other types of arbitration would mostly be bar work.

To OP, people who work in international law have a tendency to have a few more letters after their name than most. I am not sure if I would call it an advantage, and I suspect you'd get into a great number of decent chambers with summa -- but the bar attracts the best and brightest, and you will find people who work in international commercial law (for example) with Oxbridge first, BCL, MPhil, Examination Fellow at All Souls, and DPhil, and then they will take the BPTC and get outstanding. And you have some people with a first, the GDL, BPTC and they're good to go. There is no firm rule, but people do tend to qualify up.

I know @TimmonaPortella is a commercial specialist, but not sure if he will know much about the "INGO" bar as it were.
Original post by Notoriety


I know @TimmonaPortella is a commercial specialist, but not sure if he will know much about the "INGO" bar as it were.


I... I've tried, but I just can't bring myself to read the wall of quick-fire questions in OP.

Don't know much about the public international law world really, but I'm guessing if you were looking to instruct counsel in that line you'd call Essex Court or 20 Essex Street. Probably not something you could walk into without basically knowing the industry first :dontknow:
Reply 3
mfw TSR censors c.um
LOL. I didn't even notice.

What's an INGO? International NGO? If so, oh dear
You're right! INGO = international NGO.

You only need a GDL to practice law in the UK. Or needed. It doesn't matter what you study now that the SQE is being rolled out for post-2020 graduates.
I'm both comforted and slightly confused. Are they phasing out the GDL immediately or is it still possible to apply to these programmes for 2019-2020?

Chances are that you'll take a two year course that mixes the academic and vocational content together.
Do you know of any specific programmes like this? This sounds ideal!

The rule is that you don't need an LLM. However, I would check the websites of potential employers and see whether they express any preference for postgrad study.
Great idea, thanks!

The LLB leaves plenty of time for volunteer work. The BAs at Oxbridge, not so much (shorter terms, multiple essays a week, etc).
Having time to volunteer would be wonderful, but if an LLB is no different to an GDL and a GDL (or whatever is replacing it) would include both academic and vocational content, I'd rather save time doing that instead.

International law is horrendously vague and you might not be practising it at an NGO anyway.
True!

What area of international law are you interested in?
I'm interested in the law as it relates to sex trafficking and child sex tourism.

I think that you need a US LLM for Cali and NY. Not sure.
I'll check with the Cali Bar association, but this sounds right to me.

The SQE prep course will take min. 2 years to complete, the LLB is typically 3 (unless you wanna add fancy study abroad or language options).
Will the SQE prep course be replacing the GDL completely by 2019-2020? I haven't seen any of these programmes advertised but I have seen GDL law conversion courses.

There's no real equivalent to the JD in the UK. The LLB has a slightly different focus and is aimed at undergrads who aren't necessarily going into a legal career (most don't).
So, in order to qualify for anything in the US I should count on SQE prep + an LLM and then whatever training course the Cali bar is offering to international lawyers should I ever choose to return to the US?

Since it seems like you're in the dark,
How right you are lol


I'd suggest finding a place that will train you to become an international human rights or whatever lawyer (a solicitor, probably). I'm guessing that there are some boutiques in London that do that sort of judicial review/administrative stuff.
Would I be doing this for the SQE prep programme, concurrently with an SQE prep programme, or afterwards?

No idea about what you need to do to get rights before the ICJ etc.
Same.

Also do keep in mind that you'll likely be selling your soul out for cold corporate cash before you even get into the final year of your degree. It happens to the best of us.
I suppose it's possible (even probable) I'll sell my soul at some point, as passionate as I am about my cause. I have nothing against people who do this. Survival is important.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions!
Original post by TimmonaPortella
I... I've tried, but I just can't bring myself to read the wall of quick-fire questions in OP.

Don't know much about the public international law world really, but I'm guessing if you were looking to instruct counsel in that line you'd call Essex Court or 20 Essex Street. Probably not something you could walk into without basically knowing the industry first :dontknow:


Just if they wanted to get into PIL (I would guess public), would a US BA in socio with a summa from a top school and a GDL be sufficient to get into some decent sets or would it be advisable to take a full postgrad? Seems to be a very academic-y area.

EDIT: I jumped the gun a bit because I forgot they asked about the SQE. Not that that necessarily indicates they're interested in being a solicitor and not a barrister; might not know the difference.



That stuff is scary; don't do it to yourself! The ones which get me are the the people who take PhDs in classics and stuff, and then switch over -- that's cheating, man.
(edited 5 years ago)
Reply 5
@Notoriety

To OP, people who work in international law have a tendency to have a few more letters after their name than most. I am not sure if I would call it an advantage, and I suspect you'd get into a great number of decent chambers with summa -- but the bar attracts the best and brightest, and you will find people who work in international commercial law (for example) with Oxbridge first, BCL, MPhil, Examination Fellow at All Souls, and DPhil, and then they will take the BPTC and get outstanding. And you have some people with a first, the GDL, BPTC and they're good to go. There is no firm rule, but people do tend to qualify up.

My concern is that, since I've already taken so long to earn the first degree, I'll wind up staying in school much longer than I should (accumulating a lot of debt in the process) and beginning my career much later than I should.

Which degree(s) would you consider essential?
Reply 6
@TimmonaPortella

I... I've tried, but I just can't bring myself to read the wall of quick-fire questions in OP.

Oops. Sorry about that! I've edited the post so the questions aren't all crammed together if that helps!

Don't know much about the public international law world really, but I'm guessing if you were looking to instruct counsel in that line you'd call Essex Court or 20 Essex Street. Probably not something you could walk into without basically knowing the industry first :dontknow:

I know so little about the industry (and I've had so little sleep) that I'm ashamed to say I didn't comprehend most of what you wrote above or perhaps I've missed some piece that was in an earlier post.

Do you mean that I get in contact with one of these entities and see about doing some sort of internship or apprenticeship for this LPC thing or is this related to the training contract thing?

In the US, you go to law school and then get a job afterward, from what I understand, but it seems that this isn't the case in the UK, from what I'm reading in this thread. In the UK, do you have to find a law firm that will sponsor you in order to do a GDL programme?

What I'm getting from this thread and elsewhere on the internet is that in order to become a solicitor, as of now, you are required to get a GDL, an LPC, and a training contract-- but starting in 2020 all three steps will be replaced by the SQE. Am I correct?

If I'm planning to apply to programmes beginning in 2019, does this mean that I have a choice between the GDL-LPC-training contract route and the SQE? If so, which would be cheaper and which would take the least time to complete?

Is the SQE a degree?

I'm not entirely clear on the distinction between barristers and solicitors, to tell you the truth, nor do I know which I should be training to be in order to do NGO work.
Reply 7
@Notoriety

Just if they wanted to get into PIL (I would guess public), would a US BA in socio with a summa from a top school and a GDL be sufficient to get into some decent sets or would it be advisable to take a full postgrad? Seems to be a very academic-y area.

Sorry, I'm still familiarising myself with all this terminology, so I'm not sure what you mean by "decent sets." Does it have something to do with the LPC or training contract, or is it related to employment after I've earned all the necessary qualifications?

When you say a GDL do you mean a GDL + LPC + Training Contract? Or, is a GDL worth something on its own?

EDIT: I jumped the gun a bit because I forgot they asked about the SQE. Not that that necessarily indicates they're interested in being a solicitor and not a barrister; might not know the difference.

I don't know the difference between a solicitor and a barrister (well I know the latter wear wigs); under whose purview would PIL fall?

That stuff is scary; don't do it to yourself! The ones which get me are the the people who take PhDs in classics and stuff, and then switch over -- that's cheating, man.

I might consider collecting degrees if I wasn't a "mature student" on a budget. I'm not considering a PhD at the moment (I'd probably be 40 by the time I finished). Thanks for the warning though!
Reply 8
Hey, no problem, I'm surprised that you replied so positively to such a cynically written post :smile:
I interpreted it as realism rather than cynicism. (Also, I'm 80% sure I already attempted to post a response to this but it never posted)

The GDL is being axed for those who will be graduating after 2020 (I'd tag J-SP to confirm but she doesn't like us tagging her so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).
Do you think she'd mind if I PM'd her? (99% sure I responded to this but it never posted.)

You have no choice but to do an SQE-preparing course (that could be an LLB with an additional LPC-replacement, or a two-year 'hybrid' GDL + LPC replacement) after that.
This does sound like a very long commitment. This concerns me, as I'm already starting out a few years later than most.

It's a bit disheartening because part of the appeal of law school in the UK for me was the idea of avoiding exams that are expensive to take and prepare for-- like the LSAT.

You should check the requirements for LLM courses in the States. I think that the ones that are even half-decent will want a 'proper' academic undergraduate degree. They may state this implicitly by requiring X years of full-time legal education.
This is probably true and I'll be sure to take a look!

Alternatively, in order to gain access to the bar exams of all 50 states, you could just stay on and do a full JD. Depends on where you want to commit.
I plan to work in the UK, but if I ever return to the US it will be to California. I have no desire to live in any other state. Cali doesn't require a JD to take the bar exam (though it is preferred) and accepts LLBs. So, if I earned an LLB or the equivalent to an LLB, moving back to the states would only mean taking a course to prepare me for the bar exam and I doubt that would take more than a year. Am I wrong about this?

Going through the process of dual-qualifying at your stage will be quite expensive and time consuming (LLB + one extra year for the SQE + LLM in the US + one extra year preparing and sitting the bar exam in NY/Cali).
Would the SQE be necessary if I had an LLB? I was under the impression that the SQE was just replacing the GDL-LPC-TC model; is it now mandatory for everyone? (Wasn't an LLB all you needed before?)

If I didn't earn an LLB, would it be possible to just do SQE prep and the SQE?

Has the SQE basically done away with the law conversion course option? Has it made the option unnecessary (I read somewhere that you can take the SQE exams with any undergraduate degree)?
If the SQE doesn't require an undergraduate law degree, does that mean I could just take an SQE prep course (beginning some "qualifying work experience" at the same time), take the exams, and then complete the work requirement?

Does this mean that you soon won't actually need a law degree to practise law in the UK?

Will the SQE system make it more difficult if I decide to go back to Cali since it doesn't look like it actually involves earning a degree? Will this limit transferability to other countries as well?

The new regime on practical (on the job) training is a bit uncertain, but, as I understand it, you can do bits of your training both before and after you pass the SQE (which, I should note, has two stages, Stage 1 and Stage 2).
About how long should it take to complete both stages plus the practical training bit? Will it take much longer than the GDL-LPC-TC path? My concern is that I'll get 3-4 years into a programme and run out of money.

However, the current practice for boutiques is to offer TCs (the current system of two-year on the job training) to those who have already completed the LPC, or who are due to complete it by the start date of the job they're applying for.
So, with the GDL, LPC, and TC how many years is that in total? Much longer than the SQE process?

Hence, you should keep an eye out for vacancies now (so that you gain an understanding of the market and the key employers), but I'd wait until just before or during your SQE preparation course before applying to these jobs. I'm not sure as to whether these places recruit a year in advance or two, though. If it's two years in advance, apply during the first year of your course. If it's a year in advance, apply during the second year.
I'll certainly begin looking!

Yeah, I went into uni with a personal statement extolling the many interesting facets of human rights law study, and I'm now spending my summer helping with weird securitisations and corporate restructuring. Transactional law is not insanely exciting, but it more than pays the bills!
Honestly, this is sort of comforting! My parents have been telling me all along that I'll regret doing NGO work in a few years when it comes time to settle down and start a family. This makes me more confident in my choice to pursue legal work with an NGO; if my parents are right, I'll still have options that will put food on the table.



Thank you for giving me such detailed answers and for providing me with a more realistic picture of what studying law in the UK might entail. You've given me a lot to think about!

(p.s. I replied to this post on mobile earlier but it never posted... so if a second reply to this post appears saying more or less exactly what I've said in this one, that is why. lol)
Original post by borgporg
@Notoriety

Just if they wanted to get into PIL (I would guess public), would a US BA in socio with a summa from a top school and a GDL be sufficient to get into some decent sets or would it be advisable to take a full postgrad? Seems to be a very academic-y area.

Sorry, I'm still familiarising myself with all this terminology, so I'm not sure what you mean by "decent sets." Does it have something to do with the LPC or training contract, or is it related to employment after I've earned all the necessary qualifications?


Decent sets mean decent barrister's chambers.


When you say a GDL do you mean a GDL + LPC + Training Contract? Or, is a GDL worth something on its own?


I would say your BA is worth something on its own. I am not sure a GDL has much worth beyond satisfying a requirement that you have foundation in the foundation modules, contract etc.


EDIT: I jumped the gun a bit because I forgot they asked about the SQE. Not that that necessarily indicates they're interested in being a solicitor and not a barrister; might not know the difference.

I don't know the difference between a solicitor and a barrister (well I know the latter wear wigs); under whose purview would PIL fall?


Well, it depends what type of PIL you're looking to do. If you want to give advice to clients about their rights (human, immigration, etc), or indeed governments -- you can be a solicitor who primarily does "advice". If you want to represent clients, advocacy, in the senior courts and the ICJ and so on -- this is going to be done by barristers who under our system have something of a monopoly on advocacy (with some exceptions). The best in the business are advocates.

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