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Manchester students deface poem by 'racist' Kipling.
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Original post by chazwomaq
Beautifully ironic choice of poem:
As was its replacement.
While Kipling's represents a challenge and a warning to those reading it, Angelou's sums up a modern sense of entitlement, lack of fellow feeling and rejection of challenge rather aptly:
Does my sassiness upset you?
Why are you beset with gloom?
’Cause I walk like I've got oil wells
Pumping in my living room.
Just like moons and like suns,
With the certainty of tides,
Just like hopes springing high,
Still I'll rise.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Dez
This is a BS argument that totally misses the point. We don't generally play music or broadcast TV shows that contain known, convicted criminals, or people who have expressed seriously prejudiced views (well, except on Question Time). So why is it acceptable to broadcast the works of Kipling, in a completely out-of-context manner like this? If that is okay by you, then why would a poster of Saville not be?
Neither ******** nor missing the point. You can separate the achievement from the man, you can accept that people are imperfect, and you can accept that modern morality is irrelevant to people who were not exposed to it. At least, I can.
Let's take some examples.
In your examples, if people wrote music that is enjoyable, listen to it and enjoy it.
We celebrate Oscar Wilde's work, though he was a convict. He was even celebrated at a time when his peccadilloes were seen as a grievous matter by people who abhorred his behaviour.
We celebrate Alexander the Great as a great leader despite his despotic murderous activities. The same applies to Napoleon.
Even you probably celebrate Gandhi as a civil rights campaigner, despite the fact that he was a racist, was cruel to his wife and sons, covered up a murder for political gain and advocated that the Jews in Germany should have committed mass suicide.
Even Hitler and Mussolini are celebrated as great road-builders and railway reformers.
I would never have a poster of Savile (note the spelling) on my wall as I would never celebrate someone who was celebrated only for being famous, a figurehead.
Original post by Good bloke
Why not? If they achieve something beneficial and enduring why should it not be celebrated?
You might be okay with celebrating the works of criminals and bigots, but most of society generally frowns upon that sort of thing. Having a public space dedicated to celebrating the works of someone who advocated for race oppression is in poor taste, so it's really no surprise that some members of the public have taken umbrage with it.
Original post by Good bloke
If you lauded the works of only the perfect you would soon run out of enjoyable things. You might even be reduced to writing your own music and poems, making your own films, building your own bridges and growing your own food.
There is a big difference between having a book of old poems in a library and having a prominent public display of a poem in a building.
Original post by Good bloke
Neither ******** nor missing the point. You can separate the achievement from the man, you can accept that people are imperfect, and you can accept that modern morality is irrelevant to people who were not exposed to it. At least, I can.
Let's take some examples.
In your examples, if people wrote music that is enjoyable, listen to it and enjoy it.
We celebrate Oscar Wilde's work, though he was a convict. He was even celebrated at a time when his peccadilloes were seen as a grievous matter by people who abhorred his behaviour.
We celebrate Alexander the Great as a great leader despite his despotic murderous activities. The same applies to Napoleon.
Even you probably celebrate Gandhi as a civil rights campaigner, despite the fact that he was a racist, was cruel to his wife and sons, covered up a murder for political gain and advocated that the Jews in Germany should have committed mass suicide.
Even Hitler and Mussolini are celebrated as great road-builders and railway reformers.
I would never have a poster of Savile (note the spelling) on my wall as I would never celebrate someone who was celebrated only for being famous, a figurehead.
Let's take some examples.
In your examples, if people wrote music that is enjoyable, listen to it and enjoy it.
We celebrate Oscar Wilde's work, though he was a convict. He was even celebrated at a time when his peccadilloes were seen as a grievous matter by people who abhorred his behaviour.
We celebrate Alexander the Great as a great leader despite his despotic murderous activities. The same applies to Napoleon.
Even you probably celebrate Gandhi as a civil rights campaigner, despite the fact that he was a racist, was cruel to his wife and sons, covered up a murder for political gain and advocated that the Jews in Germany should have committed mass suicide.
Even Hitler and Mussolini are celebrated as great road-builders and railway reformers.
I would never have a poster of Savile (note the spelling) on my wall as I would never celebrate someone who was celebrated only for being famous, a figurehead.
Oscar Wilde was (eventually) pardoned along with numerous other homosexuals in 2017.
As for the others you mentioned, personally, I'd find it quite odd if a new campus building were to be dedicated to individuals like Alexander, Napoleon or Gandhi. And I'd likely consider them to be in relatively poor taste as well. I'm not aware of any recent constructions that have been made in honour of these particular historical figures, though.
Original post by generallee
True, but so what? It doesn't refute my point that the British Empire was (arguably) the most significant force in world history in the abolition of slavery.
It's not really much of an achievement considering they played a large role in instigating it in the 1st place.And they didn't abolish it it still exists in plenty of places.
Original post by hazmort
Kipling was a victim of his era and there is no need for that to shadow what a great writer he was. Just because something offends you doesn’t give you the right to censor it. The left has gone too far with its political correctness and have started to resemble the soviets. Cover up his poem is not going to reverse all the British imperialism that happened. Imagine if somebody defaced a nelson Mandela speech because he was a terrorist how would the left feel then?
I don't really buy this victim of an era stuff.Yeah racism was common back then but still there were people who thought it was wrong.Did he not have the guts to think for himself without conforming to society? It's a poor excuse.Change only ever comes about because people stand up and say that something is wrong even if the whole of society believes it to be right.If everyone just did what Kipling did and agreed with the status quo then nothing would ever change.And yeah the left is really not starting to resemble the Soviets.
Original post by Robby2312
It's not really much of an achievement considering they played a large role in instigating it in the 1st place.And they didn't abolish it it still exists in plenty of places.
Slavery has existed throughout human history and sadly continues today. It was the norm, throughout the globe until the early nineteenth century, and yet the narrative you learnt at school is that it was some kind of British invention almost. Post modern, self hating, bo11ocks.
The British Empire abolished slavery at a stroke for a quarter of the world's population and did very well in disrupting it for the rest, through the Royal Navy, at that time the most powerful on the planet.
We were an exemplar for the world. It was a huge leap forward for mankind, and ironically the result of the actions of dead white men whom we are supposed now to despise. An uncomfortable truth for those whose parti pris narrative (slavery was abolished by the actions of people of colour!) you spout.
Original post by Robby2312
It's not really much of an achievement considering they played a large role in instigating it in the 1st place.And they didn't abolish it it still exists in plenty of places.
Actually the Atlantic Slave trade was nothing compared to the Arabic Slave Trade, where people of all races were enslaved. Also, in the Atlantic Slave Trade it was other Africans who made Africans slaves a lot of the time. The whites just bought the slaves.
Also, the word slave is Arabic and derives from the word Slav.
Stop hating white people just to seem cool - it's not cool, it just makes you seem ignorant.
Original post by JacobReesMogg
Actually the Atlantic Slave trade was nothing compared to the Arabic Slave Trade, where people of all races were enslaved. Also, in the Atlantic Slave Trade it was other Africans who made Africans slaves a lot of the time. The whites just bought the slaves.
Also, the word slave is Arabic and derives from the word Slav.
Stop hating white people just to seem cool - it's not cool, it just makes you seem ignorant.
Also, the word slave is Arabic and derives from the word Slav.
Stop hating white people just to seem cool - it's not cool, it just makes you seem ignorant.
Tbh I would say having the username JacobReesMogg makes you seem vastly more ignorant than I do.The man is a moron.
Original post by Robby2312
I don't really buy this victim of an era stuff.Yeah racism was common back then but still there were people who thought it was wrong.Did he not have the guts to think for himself without conforming to society? It's a poor excuse.Change only ever comes about because people stand up and say that something is wrong even if the whole of society believes it to be right.If everyone just did what Kipling did and agreed with the status quo then nothing would ever change.And yeah the left is really not starting to resemble the Soviets.
The poem that was defaced and then torn down was "If."
How is it racist? Have you ever even read it??
Original post by Dandaman1
Ironically, that's exactly how many of these middle class, white, progressive students see themselves. Just replace "civilisation" with "equality" and swap out Uncle Sam with a Starbucks-sipping hipster.
Correct. Can't ****ing stand them.
Original post by Robby2312
Tbh I would say having the username JacobReesMogg makes you seem vastly more ignorant than I do.The man is a moron.
He is the only one is Government arguing for the full Brexit that the British people voted for. I take it, however, that you are a remainer and I fear that Brexiteers and remainers will never see eye-to-eye so lets try not to get off topic as there are already too many Brexit threads.
People's Brexit views are opinions based on facts for each side of the argument, so having a different opinion to you doesn't make me ignorant. However, your factually incorrect statements about slavery do make you ignorant as they are factually incorrect.
Also, using my username as a comeback makes it look like a immature child with nothing better to say - some advice for next time
Original post by Wilfred Little
Correct. Can't ****ing stand them.
Nor can any sane person. They should be reeducated as they spout so much bullsh*t
Here is a poem by the artist who replaced Kipling:
"Your beauty is a thunder
And I am set a wandering-a wandering
Deafened
Down twilight tin-can alleys
And moist sounds
“OOo wee, Baby, look what you could get if your name
was Willie”
Oh, to dip your words like snuff.
A laughter, black and streaming
And I am come a being-a being
Rounded
Up Baptist aisles, so moaning
And moist sounds
“Bless her heart. Take your bed and walk.
You been heavy burdened”
Oh, to lick your love like tears."
Which I think most of us agree is total schlock. Poetry for people who don't read poetry. As Ali G would say "Is it cos I is black?"
And here is the poem defaced and replaced:
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them:
‘Hold on!’If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
I wouldn't say it is great poetry, but it is good. And certainly far superior to Angelou's self pitying, whiny drivel.
"Your beauty is a thunder
And I am set a wandering-a wandering
Deafened
Down twilight tin-can alleys
And moist sounds
“OOo wee, Baby, look what you could get if your name
was Willie”
Oh, to dip your words like snuff.
A laughter, black and streaming
And I am come a being-a being
Rounded
Up Baptist aisles, so moaning
And moist sounds
“Bless her heart. Take your bed and walk.
You been heavy burdened”
Oh, to lick your love like tears."
Which I think most of us agree is total schlock. Poetry for people who don't read poetry. As Ali G would say "Is it cos I is black?"
And here is the poem defaced and replaced:
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them:
‘Hold on!’If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
I wouldn't say it is great poetry, but it is good. And certainly far superior to Angelou's self pitying, whiny drivel.
Yes but artistic value doesn't matter to these SJWs. Only race matters. It is a sad state of affairs for Great Britain when our Universities are ruled by extremist mobs.
Original post by JacobReesMogg
Yes but artistic value doesn't matter to these SJWs. Only race matters. It is a sad state of affairs for Great Britain when our Universities are ruled by extremist mobs.
Quite.
A bad poem written by a black person is superior to a good poem written by a white one. Just because the author was black!
The resemblance is striking!
Original post by Wōden
"Riddi Viswanathan", "Fatima Abid", "Sara Khan", hmm such quintessentially English names.....
The staggering hypocrisy of these students to complain about black and brown voices being "written out of history" (and of course, they give no examples of where this has actually happened), only to then erase and slander one of the greatest cultural icons of our nation's history, a man who's deep and evocative work is loved and admired by many and in essence is part of the very fabric of the British (especially English) identity. Nowhere else on Earth would a people of obvious non-native descent get away with being so brazenly disrespectful to the culture of their respective host nation. Why do we keep putting up with this ****?
The staggering hypocrisy of these students to complain about black and brown voices being "written out of history" (and of course, they give no examples of where this has actually happened), only to then erase and slander one of the greatest cultural icons of our nation's history, a man who's deep and evocative work is loved and admired by many and in essence is part of the very fabric of the British (especially English) identity. Nowhere else on Earth would a people of obvious non-native descent get away with being so brazenly disrespectful to the culture of their respective host nation. Why do we keep putting up with this ****?
This is the true whitewashing - expunging people from history because certain of their beliefs were objectionable to us now. If they're doing that, they should be expunging Churchill from our history books too: he was openly racist too, and held a particular hatred of Indians and Jews.
Original post by generallee
The poem that was defaced and then torn down was "If."
How is it racist? Have you ever even read it??
How is it racist? Have you ever even read it??
Did I say it was?
Original post by JacobReesMogg
He is the only one is Government arguing for the full Brexit that the British people voted for. I take it, however, that you are a remainer and I fear that Brexiteers and remainers will never see eye-to-eye so lets try not to get off topic as there are already too many Brexit threads.
People's Brexit views are opinions based on facts for each side of the argument, so having a different opinion to you doesn't make me ignorant. However, your factually incorrect statements about slavery do make you ignorant as they are factually incorrect.
Also, using my username as a comeback makes it look like a immature child with nothing better to say - some advice for next time
People's Brexit views are opinions based on facts for each side of the argument, so having a different opinion to you doesn't make me ignorant. However, your factually incorrect statements about slavery do make you ignorant as they are factually incorrect.
Also, using my username as a comeback makes it look like a immature child with nothing better to say - some advice for next time
What did I say that was factually incorrect? The British did play a large role in perpetuating the Atlantic slave trade.Just because they later decided to abolish it is neither here nor there.It doesn't excuse it.And the British people are uneducated.Yes let's vote to make it harder to trade with the EU that large trading partner who we do most of our trade with.Genius.That'll have no adverse effects on us.And 52% is only just a majority nearly half of the British people voted against.Wheres their say?It doesn't change my point that the man is clearly intellectually challenged.
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