Theresa May has taken over Brexit negotiations

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Fullofsurprises
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Relax everyone - Theresa's in charge now. We can all sleep safe in our beds. :lol:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...u-negotiations

Dominic Raab lasted about 3 days as the true Brexi-Sec. Some kind of record, even for this chaotic 'government'.

I'm trying to picture the talks now:

Mrs May: "Bonjour Monsieur Barnier! We would like to introduce a staged facilitated trade mechanism involving zero delays at the borders".

Barnier: "Non".

Theresa: "Oh and we can't have a border in Ireland but we need zero possibility of immigration and we can't have the border in the Irish Sea and, oh dear, please help!"

Michel: "Non".

St Theresa of Mayfair (pleadingly): "Couldn't we just have at least some kind of slight extension to the two years to, you know, perhaps sort some more things out with you?"

Jacques Delors (don't you mean 'Jean-Claude Juncker'? Ed.): "Non."

Negotiations continue on page 94.
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Lit teacher
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Well David Davis only spent four hours negotiating this year. That's less time than our year 11 students spend on homework each week.
Given how much she is hated by some members of her own party, and the number of former ministers who are plotting against her, it must be a relief for May to travel to Brussels and deal with grown-ups for a change.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Lit teacher)
Well David Davis only spent four hours negotiating this year. That's less time than our year 11 students spend on homework each week.
Given how much she is hated by some members of her own party, and the number of former ministers who are plotting against her, it must be a relief for May to travel to Brussels and deal with grown-ups for a change.
It's hilariously unravelling, I really don't think they know what to do. Clearly the pressure is on now, but what on earth can she achieve that the previous ones didn't, given that anything vaguely sensible will be vetoed by the ERG and the ghastly scheming Rees-Mogg?

She may feel a slight relief, but the outcome can only be bad for us. The line being taken by the Hard B's in the ERG is basically the destruction of British manufacturing in exchange for avoiding financial regulation of hedge funds from Brussels. So that's about six million jobs lost and about 300 very rich hedge fund managers protected (and their billionaire clients). Given that May is married to one of the latter, it's clear which way this is going to go now.
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Lit teacher
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It's like that bit on the Titanic film where the lifeboats have been steadily leaving and people think there is plenty of time. Then suddenly the water is closer, time is running out and everything starts falling apart. Some leap overboard, some are pushed, some fight with each other. And the Captain stands there, staring out. Knowing that he's responsible for the disaster but with no idea what to do to stop the ship sliding below the waves with everyone still on board.

On the plus side, Arron Banks might be facing a few years in a prison in Lesotho, which will upset Putin no end.
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Castro Saint
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Even as a left wing remainer who gave in to the fact the we were leaving the EU and the result was final, democracy etc etc... we need another vote on the final agreement lol. What a shambles.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Relax everyone - Theresa's in charge now. We can all sleep safe in our beds. :lol:
Theresa has to have a deal. Raab doesn't. Raab can say "Cabinet told me to go this far and no further". Theresa fails if there is no deal. It doesn't matter what the deal says; that is all about getting it through Parliament or the country, but she can't fail to have a deal.

Can Rees-Mogg, can Corbyn, withstand a call for a referendum, if they are blocking May's deal? I don't think an election works, unless May is returned with a thumping majority which appears implausible.

What does "No" mean? It can't mean a "no deal" Brexit because she has to control the headbanging tendency. A three way vote looks like a democratic fix. It has to be cancel Article 50 but not reverse Brexit (and perhaps serve another Article 50 notice) and hope it doesn't look attractive to Remainers.
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Just a hunch, but if Art 50 was cancelled, and someone tried to RE ENACT it, I think they might be torn limb from limb, even in England
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by StriderHort)
Just a hunch, but if Art 50 was cancelled, and someone tried to RE ENACT it, I think they might be torn limb from limb, even in England
The Tories have completely boxed themselves in by insisting on an early Article 50 before negotiating - it would have been much better the other way round - and by then further legally binding themselves to no possible alteration of it. I say 'boxed themselves in' from the perspectives of the Soft Brexiteers in the party - for the ERG and their fellow-travelling dimwits who don't yet understand that the whole thing is about preserving the financial interests of some offshored finance capital people (some of them Russian) and nothing whatever to do with 'the people of England' as Farage calls them, this is all good news and win-win. A hard collapse of the UK economy appears to be what Rees Mogg and the other hedge fund spokespeople are after.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Theresa has to have a deal. Raab doesn't. Raab can say "Cabinet told me to go this far and no further". Theresa fails if there is no deal. It doesn't matter what the deal says; that is all about getting it through Parliament or the country, but she can't fail to have a deal.

Can Rees-Mogg, can Corbyn, withstand a call for a referendum, if they are blocking May's deal? I don't think an election works, unless May is returned with a thumping majority which appears implausible.

What does "No" mean? It can't mean a "no deal" Brexit because she has to control the headbanging tendency. A three way vote looks like a democratic fix. It has to be cancel Article 50 but not reverse Brexit (and perhaps serve another Article 50 notice) and hope it doesn't look attractive to Remainers.
The only possible 'deal' is some sort of superfudge, as Ireland is utterly unresolvable without staying in the SM and CU and dear Mrs May has already firmly rejected both of the latter and the EU and Ireland firmly rejected the non-border solutions.

Taking this hack fudge to another referendum will only reveal its many defects and obvious stupidities, promoting apathy and a desire for revenge in the electorate. The vengeance factor was clearly part of the first referendum result - the hostility of the North and Midlands to Cameron/Osborne (anyone remember them?) austerity policies. Now it would be against the 'establishment' with Farage baying in the wings and demanding everyone's heads.

The other alternative, a general election, is perhaps slightly more of a possibility than the pundits claim - after all, why should Rees Mogg care about that, sitting on his vast majority in Somerset and with his client's money now safely in Ireland and Russia? The more chaos the better for this professional Eton liar.
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hailye2
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What happening to the military base on Cyprus?
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Fullofsurprises
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Dominic Grieve calls for a second referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8461076.html
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by hailye2)
What happening to the military base on Cyprus?
That will be a NATO deployment, so it's unlikely that Brexit would have any effect on it. However, as the UK slumps into an economic depression after Brexit, the government could decide they can't afford to run it. They have already cut the military to the bone.
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fallen_acorns
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its a huge mess.

But, the idea that a vote got us into this mess, and a vote will sort it out - is entirely optimistic and driven by ideology.

The high probabilty is that a vote got us into the mess, and another vote will make the mess worse. It will further the devisions, further piss off both sides, create even weaker and more confused goverment bodies, and make a huge political mess.

Referendums cause chaos, unless the ruling party gets its way - and in my opinion, should always be followed up with the loosing party ceeding power, should they loose.

If we really need a second decision, then make it an election, and mandate that there must be parties that stand either side of the brexit issue, rather then on party platforms. That way we what ever the outcome, we would end up with a ruling party who:

A, has a plan,
B, has a mandate for the plan,
C, has a majority fort he plan (hopefully)
D, has the will and motivation to carry out the plan
E, believes in that plan.
F, can be held fully acountable if the plan fails.

RIght now, thanks to our poorly planned referendum, our goverment had no plan for the outcome.. has no clear mandate for the specifics, has no majority to work confidently with, has no motivation or belief in the plan (from the PM at least), and will never be 100% accountable, because the current PM never wanted or supported this in the first place.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
its a huge mess.

But, the idea that a vote got us into this mess, and a vote will sort it out - is entirely optimistic and driven by ideology.

The high probabilty is that a vote got us into the mess, and another vote will make the mess worse. It will further the devisions, further piss off both sides, create even weaker and more confused goverment bodies, and make a huge political mess.

Referendums cause chaos, unless the ruling party gets its way - and in my opinion, should always be followed up with the loosing party ceeding power, should they loose.

If we really need a second decision, then make it an election, and mandate that there must be parties that stand either side of the brexit issue, rather then on party platforms. That way we what ever the outcome, we would end up with a ruling party who:

A, has a plan,
B, has a mandate for the plan,
C, has a majority fort he plan (hopefully)
D, has the will and motivation to carry out the plan
E, believes in that plan.
F, can be held fully acountable if the plan fails.

RIght now, thanks to our poorly planned referendum, our goverment had no plan for the outcome.. has no clear mandate for the specifics, has no majority to work confidently with, has no motivation or belief in the plan (from the PM at least), and will never be 100% accountable, because the current PM never wanted or supported this in the first place.
Yes and just look at the slippery role Jeremy Corbyn is playing in all this, refusing to make the Labour Party the obvious Remain party and constantly refusing to take positions, not least during the actual referendum, when he was shamefully and disgustingly silent (to the point of treachery against the people) and did not even have the guts to state his own pro-Leave opinions.

Without any party to represent Remain (or even a soft Brexit) we are in total chaos, left to the mercy of the DUP, William Rees Mogg and a bunch of Tory backbench lunatics voted in by ageing racists in the Home Counties who mostly have never even seen a real immigrant.
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Fullofsurprises
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Tory MEP for the E. of England thinks it should be declared 'treason' to support Remain.
https://twitter.com/DCBMEP

Meanwhile, Farage and Aaron Banks can consort with Putin and even threaten a military coup if they don't get their way (as Farage did several times during the campaign), accept secret donations for Leave from overseas financiers and meet with the Russian ambassador multiple times during the campaign and that is apparently all absolutely fine.

One cringes at the state of Britain and the 1930s-style neo-fascist atmosphere we now operate in.
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes and just look at the slippery role Jeremy Corbyn is playing in all this, refusing to make the Labour Party the obvious Remain party and constantly refusing to take positions, not least during the actual referendum, when he was shamefully and disgustingly silent (to the point of treachery against the people) and did not even have the guts to state his own pro-Leave opinions.

Without any party to represent Remain (or even a soft Brexit) we are in total chaos, left to the mercy of the DUP, William Rees Mogg and a bunch of Tory backbench lunatics voted in by ageing racists in the Home Counties who mostly have never even seen a real immigrant.
I won't ever share your opinions on brexit or the right , but I think we agree on how much of a mess we are in now. I would love labour to be the remain party - almost any other labour leader, would have pushed a strong remain message throughout the campaign - and then possibly given an alternative at the last election, which should have been the brexit-election that I wanted, but ended up being about everything but brexit, after both main parties provided almost identical brexit plans in their manifesto.
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hello_shawn
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Well according to OP the EU can do no wrong. Let's revisit that idea in 30 years time when the whole of Europe is gutted out. Apart from France and Germany of course
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by StriderHort)
Just a hunch, but if Art 50 was cancelled, and someone tried to RE ENACT it, I think they might be torn limb from limb, even in England
Whilst a two question vote would get through Parliament, any three way vote would be seen for the fix it was.

In any two way vote, the "wrong" choice can't be obviously more attractive than the "right" choice. Any future referendum cannot offer "remain" because any May Brexit deal will be voted down and it cannot offer "no deal Bexit" so long as the Brexiteers won't face reality over what that means.
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(Original post by hello_shawn)
Well according to OP the EU can do no wrong. Let's revisit that idea in 30 years time when the whole of Europe is gutted out. Apart from France and Germany of course
Right now, it would seem the UK is in a more precarious position the Europe.
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(Original post by Castro Saint)
Even as a left wing remainer who gave in to the fact the we were leaving the EU and the result was final, democracy etc etc... we need another vote on the final agreement lol. What a shambles.
Definitely agree - I think the chances of a final vote are far greater than most political commentators/pundits think. Still far from a sure thing but how any leader can confidently get any Brexit through parliament...

A second referendum is really the only sure-fire way of getting around that problem.
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