The Student Room Group

Have Gender and Sexual Identities gone too far?

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Original post by yudothis
Language is a form of control and by changing it, controlling you really don't think it concerns you?


This is very postmodern of you. Language having control over people and being a product of power relations is just the sort of thing the cultural Marxist bogey man Foucault wrote about.

Thing is this is exactly what trans people are saying. The gendered nature of our language harms trans people. It contributes to their high suicide rate. All we ask of you, yudithis, is to call a trans woman a woman. It improves their quality of existence massively and barely infringes on yours. If you are being an arse you will be called out and shamed, just as you would if you decided you should have the right to bully a disabled person. Society has rules. You cannot just do whatever you want without there being social consequences.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Retired_Messiah
You've been to a toilet before, right? Folk tend not to walk around just waving their johnson about. If the space was only cubicles and no urinals then you'd have basically no chance of actually encountering **** in the wild.


Then why has it happened? Why are there stories over stories on Twitter about it? Why is there concrete evidence like with what happened with Target in the US?

Alternatively, if it is such a trivial matter, why do they so desperately need to be with women in toilets? If you can't tell anyway, and there is no difference, why do they need to be with women?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Deliberately misgendering and then receiving stick does not make one a political martyr. It makes you an unpleasant bully. Get over it.


Keep chatting ****. "Misgendering" is identity politics nonsense.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
This is very postmodern of you. Language having control over people and being a product of power relations is just the sort of thing the cultural Marxist bogey man Foucault wrote about.

Thing is this is exactly what trans people are saying. The gendered nature of our language harms trans people. It contributes to their high suicide rate. All we ask of you, yudithis, is to call a trans woman a woman. It improves their quality of existence massively and barely infringes on yours. If you are being an arse you will be called out and shamed, just as you would if you decided you should have the right to bully a disabled person. Society has rules. You cannot just do whatever you want without there being social consequences.


2+2=5

Transwomen are women

Same ****. Not having it.

The high suicide rate is a myth and despite guidelines by organizations such as the Samaritans, trans activists keep bleating on about it. They even go so far as to use it as emotional blackmail. Gaslighting 101. If me not validating your identity makes you suicidal, then I suggest you need serious therapy. Additionally, are you also suggesting we validate delusions of say girls with eating disorders / severe body image issues?

And exactly, tans people and non-binary attention seekers cannot make demands without there being social consequences.

ps why does it matter if something is "very postmodern" of me? Do you subscribe to one ideology and then stick to it no matter what? That is exactly what many young liberals do, they blindly follow the dogma, even if at first they question something, they go along with it and after time it becomes normal. It means people who ever dare venture outside of the bubble and promote something that is from another ideology, are ostracized. It contributes to the polarization of discourse.
(edited 5 years ago)
This is the way I see it:

You can believe you are whatever you like, identify as whatever you like, and call yourself by whatever name you like.

However, you can not force other people nor society at large to perceive you in the same way you perceive yourself, nor expect any exceptional treatment just because of how you perceive yourself. That is entirely up to them.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by yudothis
Then why has it happened? Why are there stories over stories on Twitter about it? Why is there concrete evidence like with what happened with Target in the US?


Ah yes, twitter. The infallible source of all unbiased reporting. As for target, a quote from 'ere:
Target says the man who exposed himself was drunk. There's no indication that he is transgender.

If target were dumb enough to let a man into their shop when he was so drunk that he thought it acceptable to wave his **** around in women's bathrooms, I'd argue that's a Target issue, rather than a bathroom issue. One of my uni's student unions has a gender neutral loo in it and has had no such issues come to light.

Besides, as I think I already said:
suppose the fix to help the uncomfortable would be to have all 3 available at once.

My proposed solution was not the same as Target's, who appear to simply kept two gendered ones and let folk pop into either. I was going for the blatantly biological + a gender neutral space, which would in theory eliminate the risk of men wandering into a room full of females with his penis on show, given that he'd instead be told to go to 'gender confusion zone' of sorts, where there'd either be ****ing nobody (very likely as trans people are a small minority), or a mix of different sexes and genders.

Original post by yudothis
Alternatively, if it is such a trivial matter, why do they so desperately need to be with women in toilets? If you can't tell anyway, and there is no difference, why do they need to be with women?

I think I already said I don't see the point, yes
I think bathroom debates either way are a bit of a waste of time. I'd be fine keeping them gendered as they are, but if people build gender neutral loos I don't particularly care about that either. It is just pooping, at the end of the day.


However if it's desperately important to them for some dumb reason, and it's a trivial thing that doesn't matter to me personally, why would I be vehemently against it? I think organised religion is a bit daft, but I don't go around telling people to not follow it 'cause it doesn't really affect me at the end of the day. As a cis user of gendered loos I see no reason to get worked up.

Original post by yudothis
Additionally, are you also suggesting we validate delusions of say girls with eating disorders / severe body image issues?

Different kettle of fish. For one thing, there's mental conditions where entertaining delusions is preferred. In dementia patients guidelines are to actually entertain their delusions, as arguing with them when they've dismembered something gets them more confused and generally harms their well-being due to the general distress it causes them.

If we're treating transgenderism as a delusion, I'd apply dementia's modus operandi rather than the guidelines for eating disorders. Entertaining a trans person's wants of pronouns does them no real harm, whereas telling them their identity is bs serves no purpose other than to piss them off. Going out of your way to piss somebody off for no discernible gain does not make you a good person.

If the medical field knew a way of sorting out gender dysphoria that didn't involve validating these people's identities, I imagine they'd deploy that rather than throwing money away on sex change operations and constant supplies of hormones for these people.
Original post by Retired_Messiah
Ah yes, twitter. The infallible source of all unbiased reporting. As for target, a quote from 'ere:


What a joke. This wasn't about one person, the number of incidents exploded, as I said, and you talk about a single person. Next, no one ever said that the threat is solely trans identified males, but that self ID will enable any male to do this. You clearly haven't even bothered to fully inform yourself about this discussion...

Oh and "As a cis user of gendered loos I see no reason to get worked up." - no ****, doesn't affect you, so why care? Plenty of women are saying it bothers them and yet somehow the feelings of a tiny minority is given preference. A tiny minority of men.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by yudothis
What a joke. This wasn't about one person, the number of incidents exploded, as I said, and you talk about a single person. Next, no one ever said that the threat is solely trans identified males, but that self ID will enable any male to do this. You clearly haven't even bothered to fully inform yourself about this discussion...

Oh and "As a cis user of gendered loos I see no reason to get worked up." - no ****, doesn't affect you, so why care? Plenty of women are saying it bothers them and yet somehow the feelings of a tiny minority is given preference. A tiny minority of men.

You :congrats:are :congrats:missing :congrats:half :congrats:my :congrats:points:congrats:

Original post by Retired_Messiah

My proposed solution was not the same as Target's, who appear to simply kept two gendered ones and let folk pop into either. I was going for the blatantly biological + a gender neutral space, which would in theory eliminate the risk of men wandering into a room full of females with his penis on show, given that he'd instead be told to go to 'gender confusion zone' of sorts, where there'd either be ****ing nobody (very likely as trans people are a small minority), or a mix of different sexes and genders.

Why would a woman theoretically be uncomfortable with this? What is there to inform myself about if the solution I've come up with off the bat hasn't been refuted by anything in the discussion?
Yes. It’s becoming just like Uncle Ruckus from The Boondocks.
Original post by Retired_Messiah
You :congrats:are :congrats:missing :congrats:half :congrats:my :congrats:points:congrats:


Why would a woman theoretically be uncomfortable with this? What is there to inform myself about if the solution I've come up with off the bat hasn't been refuted by anything in the discussion?


Because you quite clearly haven't actually informed yourself of the debate.

So now you women have to justify themselves why they don't want to share intimate spaces with males? Cool story, dude, cool story.

ps https://familypolicyalliance.com/issues/2018/07/20/beware-target-bathrooms/

Here, why don't you actually start reading about this stuff if you are so keen to voice your opinion on it. "...Target’s policy signaled to sexual offenders that voyeuristic offenses would be easier to perpetrate in [Target] stores than elsewhere”. It is certainly not conclusive that people who identify as transgender are more likely to commit sexual offenses. But what is true, according to the study, is “gender-inclusive bathroom polices” attract sexual predators." - women were abused for suggesting this might happen. Shouts of "lies" "never happens".
(edited 5 years ago)
I'm unsure really, I do think there seem to be too many pronouns flying around at the moment. It's not that creating new terms to define people's sexuality is a problem, it's that some of them coming out seem quite vague in what they're trying to say it means, people even disagree with each other, and many seem so similiar I'd argue you could bunch them into a smaller number of umbrella terms which might actually make them seem more legitimate to doubters. I mean for instance every heterosexual is going to have some sort of sexual fantasy, something that really turns them on. However we don't call every heterosexual a pronoun based on this aspect of their sexuality. Even for those with fetishes, we tend not use that fetish as the pronoun to represent them even if it is such an integral part of their sexuality they practically require it for arousal.

So lets say we have heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, bi-sexual and pansexual (the latter can allow for someone who finds transsexuals where the process is not complete, thus the object of their attraction appears physiologically both male and female). I'd have thought that would be enough, you could argue for a couple more and I'd probably be convinced, but we surely don't need 50+ sexualities? As I say, that's not to say the person doesn't have a complex sexuality, just I can't see how there are so many which are so distinct from each other that we'd need that many terms, after all we only have two biological sexes for all of this attraction to stem from. There's only so many variations, and as I say I think the less confused and complex it all is, the easier it'll actually be for everyone to be accepted.
Original post by yudothis
Muppet here - https://terfisaslur.com/

The fact that you use it while "TERF" is essentially the new ****/witch/***** speaks volumes about your character. You are either part of it, or willfully ignore that a very large part of trans activists bully and abuse women under that umbrella.

Psychology isn't biology. A feeling does not a woman or man make.


https://icanpostmoroniclinkstoo.com

With all due respect you know sweet FA about this subject. If you literally just posted attack helicopter memes you'd still be making more useful posts than you are now. You can have your transphobia, but basically every bit of research says you're wrong. Grow up and listen to it rather than sounding off with this sheer unrefined crap every single time the subject comes up - stop denying biology (it's more complicated than your GCSE level understanding), stop dismissing psychology when ultimately it's an important science (also, insisting psychology is not biology and implying it's irrelevant as a result is some grade A nonsense, playing into the stigmatisation of mental health) and stop pretending you know better than medical professionals, therapists, neurobiologists, sociologists, and any other field qualified to have an expert opinion on this topic.

Also btw, if you think a simple ****ing acronym of an incredibly accurate description of a position is akin to calling someone a witch and is a slur, maybe you should instead consider how utterly repugnant and without merit your position is that that'd be the case.
Original post by yudothis
Keep chatting ****. "Misgendering" is identity politics nonsense.


Says the guy who spends literally every other post on this website arguing that his particular use of gender pronouns is correct and that other uses are wrong.....
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
https://icanpostmoroniclinkstoo.com

With all due respect you know sweet FA about this subject. If you literally just posted attack helicopter memes you'd still be making more useful posts than you are now. You can have your transphobia, but basically every bit of research says you're wrong. Grow up and listen to it rather than sounding off with this sheer unrefined crap every single time the subject comes up - stop denying biology (it's more complicated than your GCSE level understanding), stop dismissing psychology when ultimately it's an important science (also, insisting psychology is not biology and implying it's irrelevant as a result is some grade A nonsense, playing into the stigmatisation of mental health) and stop pretending you know better than medical professionals, therapists, neurobiologists, sociologists, and any other field qualified to have an expert opinion on this topic.

Also btw, if you think a simple ****ing acronym of an incredibly accurate description of a position is akin to calling someone a witch and is a slur, maybe you should instead consider how utterly repugnant and without merit your position is that that'd be the case.


Evidence I don't like to see: moronic nonsense.

I have no clue what I am talking about so I will insult my opponent by saying he has GCSE level understanding of something. I will use Trump tactics and pretend science is on my side and just repeat it over and over til people start believing me. I will also pretend that there are no "medical professionals, therapists, neurobiologists, sociologists, and any other field qualified" who have contrasting opinions and those that voice them are abused and harassed for not following the dogma.

I am so logically incoherent that at the same time I believe transwomen are normal women but they also have mental health issues even though when it suits me I will bring up the fact that it has been taken off the list of mental disorders not long ago in the US.

And that last bit just shows that it is not me who is uninformed on this issue but you. And your lack of intellect that makes you incapable of seeing the parallels between labeling women TERF and labeling women witches. Women who don't submit to men telling them what to do, what they can and can't say.

But hey, I guess you gotta play along for your daddy. But at the end of the day it's children that are put on lifelong medication and have their sexual organs mutilated that suffer, not you, some SJW on the interwebz.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/24/trans-activists-threats-execute-women-sure-dont-look-like-social-justice/

Actually do something beyond your bubble for a change and read that. "****ing TERFs. Worthless pieces of ****". "they should drown themselves".
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Big_Daymo
The suicide rates aren’t a myth, however they do still support your (and my) viewpoint as suicide rates in trans people before and after surgery and full gender transition is found to be nearly the same, around 40%. This suicide rate is so high, the only other group that had a comparably high suicide rate was Jews under nazi rule in WW2. Clearly, indulging these mental ill people hasn’t worked, so let’s stop liberalifying society.

Also, you should watch the YouTuber James Allsup, you’d like him I’m sure.


They are a myth.

People like Susie Green of Mermaids keep bleating on about them, and yet a) suicide rates of T children are in line with other LGB children, b) T children always have one, pretty much always more than one, mental health comorbidities that should be treated before being given puberty blockers, and c) as you rightly say, no study has shown that suicide rates improve post transition.

I will watch him.
Original post by yudothis
Evidence I don't like to see: moronic nonsense.

I have no clue what I am talking about so I will insult my opponent by saying he has GCSE level understanding of something. I will use Trump tactics and pretend science is on my side and just repeat it over and over til people start believing me. I will also pretend that there are no "medical professionals, therapists, neurobiologists, sociologists, and any other field qualified" who have contrasting opinions and those that voice them are abused and harassed for not following the dogma.

I am so logically incoherent that at the same time I believe transwomen are normal women but they also have mental health issues even though when it suits me I will bring up the fact that it has been taken off the list of mental disorders not long ago in the US.

And that last bit just shows that it is not me who is uninformed on this issue but you. And your lack of intellect that makes you incapable of seeing the parallels between labeling women TERF and labeling women witches. Women who don't submit to men telling them what to do, what they can and can't say.

But hey, I guess you gotta play along for your daddy. But at the end of the day it's children that are put on lifelong medication and have their sexual organs mutilated that suffer, not you, some SJW on the interwebz.


You could've saved yourself some time just by saying "No u". Would have had the same effect.
The way i see it, there's 8 billion people on earth, so there's 8 billion different genders and sexualities. Diversity is so beautiful, and harms no one (except maps). Open your mind, and your heart, and care and understand others.

If you find a label to describe yourself, thats great! And if you don't or you don't want one, that's okay too! <3
Original post by yudothis
Keep chatting ****. "Misgendering" is identity politics nonsense.


It's bullying.

And you place great importance on poeple having the correct gender. What happens if you accidently mistook a trans woman for a cis woman? There are trans women where you would have no idea.

eg the trans woman and actavist Paris Lees. If I saw her in public and had no idea who they were I would use female pronouns.

Spoiler



Personally I just don't care. If someone wants me to call them a woman I will call them a woman purely to make their life better.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
It's bullying.

And you place great importance on poeple having the correct gender. What happens if you accidently mistook a trans woman for a cis woman? There are trans women where you would have no idea.

eg the trans woman and actavist Paris Lees. If I saw her in public and had no idea who they were I would use female pronouns.

Spoiler



Personally I just don't care. If someone wants me to call them a woman I will call them a woman purely to make their life better.


It's bullying to demand. To demand you must use pronouns, to abuse you if you don't, to abuse women who don't want to share, to abuse lesbians that don't consider **** female, etc. etc. etc.

Not as much as they do :wink:

I lol'd. Next you will mention Munroe Bergdorf?
Original post by yudothis
It's bullying to demand.



Trans people kill themselves due to poeple like you who refuse to use thier prefered gendered pronoun.
(edited 5 years ago)

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