One cannot be a conservative and poor. Watch

ByEeek
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(Original post by bob072)
Why wouldn't people struggling to earn enough want to have to pay less tax, and have cheaper prices through competition and removal of tariffs.
Because those same poor working class people are likely to lose their jobs or see their pay and conditions eroded by competition and the market.
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bob072
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Because those same poor working class people are likely to lose their jobs or see their pay and conditions eroded by competition and the market.
Again, low taxation and free markets without overegulatiom is the best thing for jobs. If you want an example look at what Trump's doing in America.
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DEͥSTͣIͫNY
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(Original post by katf)
Tories generally sh*t on anyone with the misfortune of being poor. Under their rule, child poverty has increased to 1/4. 67% have at least one parent working.

The cuts to public transport, particularly buses, has had an enormous impact on the ability of those who can't drive to get to work or participate in society. The cost has also risen dramatically. A monthly ticket in Cornwall costs £100. A family of 4 can expect to pay £300 a month just to get around. That's £3600 a year. And you can't save up for a car whilst spending that much to get around.

The cuts to mental health services also impact the poor disproportionately. Mental illness is significantly more common among people on lower incomes.
Well, my family isn't that well off, but I still vote conservative.
I think that people should just work harder, rather than getting free benefits.
If I want something, I would have to work hard to get it.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by bob072)
Again, low taxation and free markets without overegulatiom is the best thing for jobs. If you want an example look at what Trump's doing in America.
Trump hasn't done anything for America other than pump the economy full of tax rebaits. Given the spiralling debt the US is in, he is effectively mortgaging the present for the future. Anyone can do that. And muppets like you lord over him like he is some kind of saint when in reality, all he is doing is creating a bubble that will burst with disastrous effects. We teach history in school yet seem impervious to the past when forming decisions for the future.

You only have to look at Victorian Britain to see how a free market only benefited the rich while the poor were on subsistence pay with no choice or direction over their miserable lives. Is that what you want?
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bob072
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Trump hasn't done anything for America other than pump the economy full of tax rebaits. Given the spiralling debt the US is in, he is effectively mortgaging the present for the future. Anyone can do that. And muppets like you lord over him like he is some kind of saint when in reality, all he is doing is creating a bubble that will burst with disastrous effects. We teach history in school yet seem impervious to the past when forming decisions for the future.

You only have to look at Victorian Britain to see how a free market only benefited the rich while the poor were on subsistence pay with no choice or direction over their miserable lives. Is that what you want?

Ok, let's look at history. Reagan did exactly the same thing and had fantastic growth and increased tax receipts; the most recent US growth figure is 4.1% also tens of thousands of workers have been paid bonuses because of the tax cuts. Socialism has been an economic and social failure everywhere it has been implemented. Capitalism is what has brought people out of poverty.
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katf
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(Original post by DEͥSTͣIͫNY)
Well, my family isn't that well off, but I still vote conservative.
I think that people should just work harder, rather than getting free benefits.
If I want something, I would have to work hard to get it.
Try addressing my points. You don't choose to be mentally ill. You don't choose to live in poverty either. And your point ignores the problem of poverty among people who can't work. Or in work poverty due to low wages.

The changes to disability benefits mean that disabled people are being forced into poverty. And carer's allowance is nigh on impossible to get. So if your husband of 30 years acquired a disability and needs constant care, you can't provide that. Because you have to work in order to stay afloat. As a result, more money is spent on professional carers and the carer is left exhausted and burnt out.

There are also cuts to the funding of wheelchairs and the occupational therapists who fit them. Powered chairs cost several thousand pounds, and are needed by people who wouldn't have the strength to use a manual chair. Ill-fitting chairs can cause pressure sores and other problems.

It's not about working hard, it's about the support being there for people to have a decent life. So granny, now unable to drive, is able to get to her bridge club on the bus and therefore has a higher quality of life.

So under your idea, the punishment for having the misfortune to being too unwell to work is grinding poverty and an inability to take part in society.

Try getting out and talking to the people you're sh*tting on. And then tell me that the Tories aren't, to quote Nye Bevan, lower than vermin. Do some research and get out of your ridiculous ivory tower and then justify having 123000 homeless children in Britain.
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CountBrandenburg
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(Original post by katf)
Try addressing my points. You don't choose to be mentally ill. You don't choose to live in poverty either. And your point ignores the problem of poverty among people who can't work. Or in work poverty due to low wages.

The changes to disability benefits mean that disabled people are being forced into poverty. And carer's allowance is nigh on impossible to get. So if your husband of 30 years acquired a disability and needs constant care, you can't provide that. Because you have to work in order to stay afloat. As a result, more money is spent on professional carers and the carer is left exhausted and burnt out.

There are also cuts to the funding of wheelchairs and the occupational therapists who fit them. Powered chairs cost several thousand pounds, and are needed by people who wouldn't have the strength to use a manual chair. Ill-fitting chairs can cause pressure sores and other problems.

It's not about working hard, it's about the support being there for people to have a decent life. So granny, now unable to drive, is able to get to her bridge club on the bus and therefore has a higher quality of life.

So under your idea, the punishment for having the misfortune to being too unwell to work is grinding poverty and an inability to take part in society.

Try getting out and talking to the people you're sh*tting on. And then tell me that the Tories aren't, to quote Nye Bevan, lower than vermin. Do some research and get out of your ridiculous ivory tower and then justify having 123000 homeless children in Britain.
I don’t oppose a welfare state but as it was before, it couldn’t have been sustainable with the amount of Bureaucracy contained within the department. Not to defend the benefit reforms but it focused too much on removing the bureaucracy and illogical lumping of benefits, with its outsourcing to a company being incompetent and therefore causing more problems.
There are many reasons why there are children and parents forced into temporary accommodation, and that won’t be fixed with more reliance on the state. Regulations on the housing market have made houses in urban areas become more unaffordable to the working class and therefore hits those not in employment ( things like this have a knock on effect) the hardest. Therefore people end up falling into the poverty trap because of state inefficiency and rising prices ( and the lack of acknowledgement of rising problems like food banks until the coalition government came into power only exasperated these issues)
Simply enough, the regulations ( that unfortunately the current makeup of the Conservatives won’t address) and over reliance on public services won’t increase the purchasing power of the masses in any case. Powered wheelchairs are funded by the NHS which when coupled with the massive mess that the service is at the moment, means that it ultimately doesn’t appear to become any better for people, especially because of this funding situation, the evaluation procedure will look to cut corners

Support is necessary for the elderly but the state can’t be expected to provide all that support too, with an ageing population, more and more of the taxpayers money is being funnelled through ineffective services when there proportion of taxpayers to the elderly is decreasing.

It also doesn’t help that the failure of JSA and other such benefits to have sufficient clauses that allows people to get out of an subconscious reliance on these benefits whilst looking to see where they can properly offer their services.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by bob072)
Ok, let's look at history. Reagan did exactly the same thing and had fantastic growth and increased tax receipts; the most recent US growth figure is 4.1% also tens of thousands of workers have been paid bonuses because of the tax cuts.
But of course. Anyone can give money away, see it spent and enjoy fantastic growth figures. What you haven't eluded to was recession that followed in the early 90s as a result of central banks raising interest rates to curb inflation. Everyone seems to forget that high growth = high inflation which effectively erases any gains and everyone is back to square 1. Trump is simply setting the US up for another recession but being a clever fellow, it is unlikely to happen on his watch. It will be for other poor sod to sort the sh1t storm out.
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katf
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(Original post by CountBrandenburg)
I don’t oppose a welfare state but as it was before, it couldn’t have been sustainable with the amount of Bureaucracy contained within the department. Not to defend the benefit reforms but it focused too much on removing the bureaucracy and illogical lumping of benefits, with its outsourcing to a company being incompetent and therefore causing more problems.
There are many reasons why there are children and parents forced into temporary accommodation, and that won’t be fixed with more reliance on the state. Regulations on the housing market have made houses in urban areas become more unaffordable to the working class and therefore hits those not in employment ( things like this have a knock on effect) the hardest. Therefore people end up falling into the poverty trap because of state inefficiency and rising prices ( and the lack of acknowledgement of rising problems like food banks until the coalition government came into power only exasperated these issues)
Simply enough, the regulations ( that unfortunately the current makeup of the Conservatives won’t address) and over reliance on public services won’t increase the purchasing power of the masses in any case. Powered wheelchairs are funded by the NHS which when coupled with the massive mess that the service is at the moment, means that it ultimately doesn’t appear to become any better for people, especially because of this funding situation, the evaluation procedure will look to cut corners

Support is necessary for the elderly but the state can’t be expected to provide all that support too, with an ageing population, more and more of the taxpayers money is being funnelled through ineffective services when there proportion of taxpayers to the elderly is decreasing.

It also doesn’t help that the failure of JSA and other such benefits to have sufficient clauses that allows people to get out of an subconscious reliance on these benefits whilst looking to see where they can properly offer their services.
Firstly, housing regulations are not the issue. The issue is that landlords often charge ridiculous rents for poor quality accommodation. One of the main reasons for people becoming homeless is a tenancy agreement ending. We need longer tenancies and more tenancy protection, as well as a rent cap. The lack of social housing is also a contributing factor. Right to buy needs to end, as does the ban on local authority borrowing. If councils can borrow money to build housing, then the problem will be alleviated. I am also in favour of compulsory purchase orders being issued to landlords who fail to keep their properties fit for human habitation.

It's incredibly difficult to get wheelchairs funded by the NHS. There are long waiting lists and they often do not take into consideration reality. For example, how hard it is to get a property suitable for wheelchair users.

I'm not sure what you mean by ineffective services. Unless you mean privately provided services, then I completely agree. They are often pretty inefficient with a lot of money going to managers and profits.

Offering effective support to people seeking jobs, such as interview skills and support to complete applications will increase employment. The system of sanctions with universal credit does not.
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Little Popcorns
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Idiots do exist you know!
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CountBrandenburg
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(Original post by katf)
Firstly, housing regulations are not the issue. The issue is that landlords often charge ridiculous rents for poor quality accommodation. One of the main reasons for people becoming homeless is a tenancy agreement ending. We need longer tenancies and more tenancy protection, as well as a rent cap. The lack of social housing is also a contributing factor. Right to buy needs to end, as does the ban on local authority borrowing. If councils can borrow money to build housing, then the problem will be alleviated. I am also in favour of compulsory purchase orders being issued to landlords who fail to keep their properties fit for human habitation.

It's incredibly difficult to get wheelchairs funded by the NHS. There are long waiting lists and they often do not take into consideration reality. For example, how hard it is to get a property suitable for wheelchair users.

I'm not sure what you mean by ineffective services. Unless you mean privately provided services, then I completely agree. They are often pretty inefficient with a lot of money going to managers and profits.

Offering effective support to people seeking jobs, such as interview skills and support to complete applications will increase employment. The system of sanctions with universal credit does not.
A rent cap is unfeasible, letting is a business and therefore a cap distorts the market and discourages landlords owning properties . Furthermore it is more a problem with no fault evictions rather than rent price issues, very few of those homeless from data seems to be based on rent problems, the no fault evictions is at the moment perfectly legal and with no real way to point out the injustice. I still maintain regulations naturally mean less people could ever gather enough money to own their house or buy one, and in that case means people are barred from living in affordable housing. I see no reason to oppose the Right to Buy scheme as it allows people to take control of their expenses more. One must also remember that Councils in their current state are pathetically inefficient, and simply borrowing , when you account for all the other crap Councils like to spend their money on, will hardly be a benefit for the economy in the end

It is hard, but then again thats the problem with a lot of the NHS. For people who genuinely need help, they have to wait through a lot of public administration that could easily be solved if rather applying though the NHS for such equipment, apply for it though manufacturers themselves and allow such a program where it is partially ( or fully) subsidised by the state based on your income.

By this point you probably should realise that I’m in favour of more privatised services. If it is based on a freer market, one avoids the inefficiency of maintaining centralised administration and allows both competition to drive down prices and freedom to choose who to go to for services overall. That simply doesn’t happen when the state owns a sector completely or at very least a monopoly. Lest not forget profits are spent mostly to improve services

The last point is more of an education point tbh, simply writing applications won’t increase employability. Skills need to be demonstrated and in the case for low skill employee types, the drive to accept being in some sort of long term employment is better than relying on benefits for the rest of your working life. Fiscal responsibility is important as well as independence in tackling these things
Universal credit appears to be a failure since the idea was to reduce the amount of departments administrating benefits whilst creating a more flexible branding of a benefit which can be better fitted for an individual and reducing waiting times. A combination of being more expensive to run, LAs contracting out to a specific company and having a backlog shows it is a failure of an idea that can easily work. Now I’ll always advocate the introduction of NIT instead to reduce such delays and provide a more fitting amount of money which gives people the freedom to use the money to actually help them the way they want but that’s another discussion.
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FakeNewsEditor
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If by conservative you mean a person who values traditional institutions like the family, the church, the army and traditional conventions and mores, then clearly, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the class one belongs to.

People have enormous difficulties disassociating political labels from personal wealth or professional success no matter how many poor people historically have been conservatives and how many rich people have been political revolutionaries. There's a tenuous connection - at best.
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HighOnGoofballs
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(Original post by be only you)
*incoming fake "i'm poor and a conservative" stories.
"my opinion is the only right one and anyone who says otherwise is a liar"
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iAngely
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(Original post by katf)
Tories generally sh*t on anyone with the misfortune of being poor. Under their rule, child poverty has increased to 1/4. 67% have at least one parent working.
First of all, if you cannot take care of a child due to your circumstances then you shouldn't have children or you should give them up for adoption. Secondly, people are poor generally due to their poor life choices, lack of intelligence or budgeting skills. They have no one to blame but themselves, everyone has the same opportunity to get a good education in this country and to succeed, it's whether or not they are willing to fight for it and play the long game.

(Original post by katf)
The cuts to public transport, particularly buses, has had an enormous impact on the ability of those who can't drive to get to work or participate in society. The cost has also risen dramatically. A monthly ticket in Cornwall costs £100. A family of 4 can expect to pay £300 a month just to get around. That's £3600 a year. And you can't save up for a car whilst spending that much to get around.
People can buy a bike and cycle to work. How do you think people got around before cars and bikes were invented? They walked. Get walking.

(Original post by katf)
The cuts to mental health services also impact the poor disproportionately. Mental illness is significantly more common among people on lower incomes.
Mental illness is significantly more common among poor people? Really? Mental illness is common among everyone, regardless of their background, and it's known that richer people are less likely to talk about it or do anything about it, so suffer in silence due to pride. If you can't work because of depression then you need to evaluate your life. How is not going to work going to help you? You just isolate yourself making it worse.

People have become so sensitive and weak that it's sickening, really, we used to be a nation of proud people but we've become infected with weaklings who are "crippled" by mental illnesses all of the time. I've had depression since I was 8 due to rape, felt sorry for myself for 10 years which lead me to do badly in school, I became a feminist and an SJW during this time because I was made into a victim who needed to be saved, broke out of it and became centre-right leaning and haven't looked back, and yet here I am better off because I decided to do something about it. Stop thinking like a victim and you quickly become a stronger and more capable person.


On the topic of the conversation; people who want to achieve something in life vote conservative because we realise that success and strength come from hard work instead of relying on the government to hold our hands. Corbyn's Labour would make us into a communist (socialist as people like to call it) regime; obeying orders, being beaten or shot when out of line, becoming a statistic and owning no identity and being owned by the state - like how fascist regimes work funnily enough (they're the same really). I don't want to live in a country like that, I like my freedom, the left like to deny people their freedom. They want censorship, successful people to be punished for their success in the form of even higher taxes, to abolish what it means to be British in the favour of multiculturalism and defend an ideology that wants to destroy them due to their ignorance and belief that "being nice to them will mean they will be nice to us".

I'd rather not, thanks.
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katf
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(Original post by iAngely)
Mental illness is significantly more common among poor people? Really? Mental illness is common among everyone, regardless of their background, and it's known that richer people are less likely to talk about it or do anything about it, so suffer in silence due to pride. If you can't work because of depression then you need to evaluate your life. How is not going to work going to help you? You just isolate yourself making it worse.

People have become so sensitive and weak that it's sickening, really, we used to be a nation of proud people but we've become infected with weaklings who are "crippled" by mental illnesses all of the time. I've had depression since I was 8 due to rape, felt sorry for myself for 10 years which lead me to do badly in school, I became a feminist and an SJW during this time because I was made into a victim who needed to be saved, broke out of it and became centre-right leaning and haven't looked back, and yet here I am better off because I decided to do something about it. Stop thinking like a victim and you quickly become a stronger and more capable person.


On the topic of the conversation; people who want to achieve something in life vote conservative because we realise that success and strength come from hard work instead of relying on the government to hold our hands. Corbyn's Labour would make us into a communist (socialist as people like to call it) regime; obeying orders, being beaten or shot when out of line, becoming a statistic and owning no identity and being owned by the state - like how fascist regimes work funnily enough (they're the same really). I don't want to live in a country like that, I like my freedom, the left like to deny people their freedom. They want censorship, successful people to be punished for their success in the form of even higher taxes, to abolish what it means to be British in the favour of multiculturalism and defend an ideology that wants to destroy them due to their ignorance and belief that "being nice to them will mean they will be nice to us".

I'd rather not, thanks.
Firstly, the care system is already unable to cope with the number of kids in care. There are more children up for adoption than there are adoptive parents. Suggesting that we take more kids into care is patently ridiculous and incredibly expensive.

Secondly, being poor doesn't make you a bad parent. But to defend kids going hungry because their parents can't afford to feed them is disgusting. These kids already exist. Unless you have a time machine, telling someone not to have kids after they've had them is pretty stupid. Many kids in poverty have disabled parents too. They may have been perfectly well when they had kids. Accidents and ill health can affect anyone.

And you don't know someone's life history. My aunt left school barely literate. To suggest the education system is equal shows how woefully ignorant you are. In poor areas, schools are less likely to be rated good or outstanding than in richer ones. Kids are likely to get fewer good GCSEs. These are systemic issues in our society.

Disabilities are a thing. Not everyone can walk to work. Without the buses, my granny would be trapped in her own home. She'd be unable to get to the library or see her friends. These obviously play an enormous role in mental health and dementia prevention. Plus buses are useful for going longer distances.

Yes, mental illness is more common among people on lower incomes. https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/stat...istics-poverty here are the statistics to back it up. Poor people are also less likely to be able to afford counselling or therapy. The cost can be as much as £60 an hour.

Depression is an illness. I have been so ill that I can barely get out of bed. I've been that unwell that I have wanted to die. I couldn't cope with my brain. Working was very far from possible. I could barely leave the house without panic attacks.

It's not that I think I'm a victim, I'm just ill. I can't snap our of it. I'm quite lucky in that I have an excellent GP who's put me on some effective antidepressants. They gave me my life back.

You're clearly a completely insensitive person. I work with adults with severe mental illnesses. That's my job. They can't just get better. They struggle to look after themselves. I suggest that you get off your high horse and start listening to people. Learn what mental illness actually is and how hard it is to get out of bed. And then realise that treatment is impossible. My local area has 0 NHS counsellors. And people need counselling. The suicide rate is up. Girls are twice as likely to be self harming as they were 20 years ago. And apparently we can all just get better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Tories are the scum of the Earth. To quote Nye Bevan, they are lower than vermin. To suggest that the poor deserve their lot and just need to work harder shows a complete lack of understanding of what life is like when you're poor. I've lived on benefits. It's not easy. It's a long, hard struggle to survive. And you despise some of the most caring, kind and intelligent people on the planet for the crime of poverty.
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Reue
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(Original post by katf)
Tories are the scum of the Earth. To quote Nye Bevan, they are lower than vermin.
(Original post by katf)
you despise some of the most caring, kind and intelligent people on the planet for the crime of poverty.
The hypocrisy is strong with this one.
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katf
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(Original post by Reue)
The hypocrisy is strong with this one.
Funnily enough my utter hatred of the Tories is well informed by their actions. Such as introducing benefit sanctions. And the massive cuts to mental health services. And the enormous increase in child poverty on their watch. And Brexit. I can go on.

That's rational anger. Their hatred of poor people for being poor is utterly irrational.
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Reue
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(Original post by katf)
Funnily enough my utter hatred of the Tories is well informed by their actions. Such as introducing benefit sanctions. And the massive cuts to mental health services. And the enormous increase in child poverty on their watch. And Brexit. I can go on.

That's rational anger. Their hatred of poor people for being poor is utterly irrational.
You are clearly an intelligent person so I'm sure you can very well work out that it is not acceptable to go on personal attacks just because you disagree with the actions of their political party. There is nothing rational about having an utter hatred of someone just because they support the conservatives.
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(Original post by Reue)
You are clearly an intelligent person so I'm sure you can very well work out that it is not acceptable to go on personal attacks just because you disagree with the actions of their political party. There is nothing rational about having an utter hatred of someone just because they support the conservatives.
Oh I despise the entire party. Perfectly rational. Child poverty is up. Homelessness is up. Mental health services have been cut to the bone. That last one nearly cost me my life. NHS staffing levels are down. Food bank usage has increased by well over 1000%.

It is rational to despise a political group who have caused untold harm and suffering. The actions of the Tory party are detestable. And anyone who supports them is just as bad.
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(Original post by katf)
The actions of the Tory party are detestable. And anyone who supports them is just as bad.
I take it back, clearly you are not smart enough to seperate dislike for political support with dislike for the people themselves. Nevermind.
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