One cannot be a conservative and poor. Watch

(1)Quantum
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#41
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#41
I am a Right Wing Libertarian from a single parent background with a household income well below the national average. Nobody owes me anything, i do not want people to use force to give things to me, its not moral. I do not have a divine right to your possessions, i know i could never bring myself to take other peoples property without their permission, so i don't expect anyone else to do that. On top of all that, the best deal for the working classes is to support free market laissez-faire capitalism. No solution offers a make the world better quick ideal but this one has been shown to give the most opportunity to elevate your current working conditions and material wealth.

I know this was aimed at Conservatives but as someone with a much more conservative view of economics i thought i would weigh in. liberty is the most important value.
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123543
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#42
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#42
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I'm not a member of a political party (have been close to joining Liberal Democrats recently, but don't agree economically enough - Rory Stewart and Jo Swinson coalition when?), nor am I working class, but I certainly cannot agree.

Firstly, it depends if we are talking about being ideologically small-c conservative, or supporting/voting for the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Secondly, if we look at this away from the Brexit perspective, there are such voters as "aspirational Conservatives" - who aren't from social classes A or B, but perhaps C1, C2 or D, who believe in the "hard work" message of the Conservatives. They aspire to do well and believe in the low-tax, fiscally liberal economic model espoused by the Conservatives.

A lot of working-class people who support Leave may have gone full circle and now back the Conservatives because Brexit has become the defining issue. I personally believe that one's opinions on Brexit now matters more important than party allegiance - obviously for the non-hardcore membership.

These people voted Labour all of their life until 2010 for some, but 2015 for most - when they changed to UKIP, as Brexit became their priority. These people were never part of the metropolitan, socially liberal, university student faction of Labour, but the core, white working-class, northern support. They backed UKIP in 2015 and maybe the Brexit Party in the EU elections, however, they will now move to the Conservatives as they are promising a no-deal, out at all costs Brexit. This will be particularly true if they deliver Brexit on the 31st of October.

It's a shame it has become the defining issue and other crucial matters will be set aside, but it's the way things are.
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imlikeahermit
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#43
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#43
Benefit scroungers love Labour because they know that benefits will go up with them.

Those who have money love the Tories because they know tax cuts will happen under them.

Brexiteers love the Brexit party because they have no intelligence whatsoever and have no understanding of politics. I.E See shiny thing... Which is what that joke of a party is. No other policies, just Brexit. It's a damning inditement of the British educational system.
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desou
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#44
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(Original post by Be Only You)
I do not think a reasonable person can have the views of a Conservative if they are also one who struggles financially (in a troublesome financial state).


*Incoming fake "I'm poor and a conservative" stories.

I think this was probably true 20-30 years ago. But this is not 1990, times have changes, the Tory party has changed.

Nowadays the only people in whose interests the Tories act are the tax-dodging asset-stealing workforce-exploiting billionaires who fund both the party itself and the right-wing press who support them (increasingly including, sadly, most senior editors at the bbc).

If you want to vote for the benefit of the country as a whole, you wouldn't rationally vote tory (just look at the last 9 disastrous years), but equally, if you purely want to vote in your own best interest, you wouldn't rationally vote tory either.

Sadly a significant chunk of voters are massively uninformed, uninterested, stupid, arrogant, easily deceived and easily manipulated. I'm sure some of them are even going to quote this post and demonstrate just how hopelessly uninformed they are.
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Wōden
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#45
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(Original post by Be Only You)
I do not think a reasonable person can have the views of a Conservative if they are also one who struggles financially (in a troublesome financial state).


*Incoming fake "I'm poor and a conservative" stories.
You talk as though conservatism is purely economic, which it isn't. You can be socially/culturally conservative (which has little to no bearing on your personal finances), whilst also economically more left wing. Though I can't fathom why anybody, rich or poor, with such views would support the present Conservative Party, who are in no way shape or form socially conservative and seem to only value money.
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theJoyfulGeek
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#46
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Exactly. Affluent people are often more liberal as a way of showing that they are "good people" and very tolerant.

People who struggle to afford heating or food will often look for somebody to blame (e.g. those pesky women who steal jobs and fill quotas ). The Conservatives blame all of those pesky immigrants who steal jobs meant for British people (I'm an immigrant) and give a solution. It's an awful solution that won't work and will really harm the country, as the EU provides funds to deprived areas, but it (apparently) doesn't actually have to work.
Last edited by theJoyfulGeek; 3 weeks ago
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Rakas21
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#47
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#47
Speaking as somebody who grew up in an unemployed i have long been conservative precisely because i have seen that throwing money at a problem does not solve it. More importantly a central plank of conservatism is fostering aspiration. I believe in low taxes, in fiscal dicipline and in notions such as a property owning democracy.

I also think current events put this thread out of context a little given Brexit (polarizing) and Corbyn (a man who's views are extreme).
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SteveyStack
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#48
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Some people on this thread are laughable in blaming the conservatives for all of their woes in life.

The tory’s are anything but are able to look after the countries finances. Labour will cause suffering through their lack of control of finances. These cuts you talk about still haven’t balanced the books and we can’t live beyond ourselves forever.

The world is a brutal place but following ideology over reason helps no one. Following ideology is the problem with labour and imo they are the ones who sucker people in with false hope and false claims.
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Burton Bridge
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#49
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#49
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Benefit scroungers love Labour because they know that benefits will go up with them.

Those who have money love the Tories because they know tax cuts will happen under them.

Brexiteers love the Brexit party because they have no intelligence whatsoever and have no understanding of politics. I.E See shiny thing... Which is what that joke of a party is. No other policies, just Brexit. It's a damning inditement of the British educational system.
This post is a damning inditement of the British educational system! I've never read anything so bigoted and inaccurate.
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Burton Bridge
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#50
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(Original post by SteveyStack)
Some people on this thread are laughable in blaming the conservatives for all of their woes in life.

The tory’s are anything but are able to look after the countries finances. Labour will cause suffering through their lack of control of finances. These cuts you talk about still haven’t balanced the books and we can’t live beyond ourselves forever.

The world is a brutal place but following ideology over reason helps no one. Following ideology is the problem with labour and imo they are the ones who sucker people in with false hope and false claims.
Maybe take a look back in history of this country and see what a little idealogy did to transform the lives of the people of great Britain. Then maybe take a look at what following the alternative idealogy we have been following since 1979 has achieved since!
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Burton Bridge
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#51
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It's perfectly acceptable to believe in conservative ideals such as individual responsibility, corporate freedom etc. And be poor.

It's perfectly acceptable to believe in labour party ideals, such as group responsibility and regulatory protections, etc. And be wealthy!

Furthermore anybody who thinks that somebody who disagrees with their political ideal is stupid for no other reason than their own personal inability to comprehend alternative viewpoints/beliefs. Is a literally bigot by definition!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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imlikeahermit
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#52
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
This post is a damning inditement of the British educational system! I've never read anything so bigoted and inaccurate.
Blah blah blah. I'm starting to get sick of your pie in the sky and puppy dog tails and fairy tale ideals... By calling my views inaccurate, you are showing yourself as bigoted. I have my views, you don't like them? **** off.
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Burton Bridge
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#53
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Blah blah blah. I'm starting to get sick of your pie in the sky and puppy dog tails and fairy tale ideals... By calling my views inaccurate, you are showing yourself as bigoted. I have my views, you don't like them? **** off.
Wrong, I am not expressing strong illogical Intolerance towards people to hold different beliefs to myself.


Its perfectly acceptable to wish to remain in the European Union for genuine logical reasons, it's perfectly acceptable to vote for right wing capitalist Conservative ideals because you believe in the free market and you are prepared to logically and rationally explain you're reasons.

Unfortunately it is bigoted to villainize or act prejudiced towards groups of people who disagrees with no logical explanation, which is you're stance.
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SteveyStack
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#54
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True to an extent but modern conservatism is nothing like that. Also a number of labour policies in the 40’s were also conservative ones, the world was changing.

If you look at modern labour they have done little good. And Thatcher was a very good Prime minister without whom we would still be the sick man of Europe.

I firmly believe that the Conservatives create a society that works for a few wealthy individuals, Labour one that works for no one.
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ltsmith
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#55
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so by your logic, one cannot be rich and socialist.

reality contradicts, just go to any university campus and you'll see tonnes of yuppies and children of rich parents advocating for socialist/communist policies (e.g. high taxes on the rich)
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pickup
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#56
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(Original post by SteveyStack)
True to an extent but modern conservatism is nothing like that. Also a number of labour policies in the 40’s were also conservative ones, the world was changing.

If you look at modern labour they have done little good. And Thatcher was a very good Prime minister without whom we would still be the sick man of Europe.

I firmly believe that the Conservatives create a society that works for a few wealthy individuals, Labour one that works for no one.
We have 2 fundamentally different ideas of what politics should offer.

The Conservatives believe that everyone should take responsibility for their own lives their own families - save up for their own houses, provide their own possibly private education, private health care if necessary etc. If they have more money through hard work or inheritance then that is only right.
Labour believes that we all have a responsibility towards everyone in this country. There should be a minimum income, which allows people to live without fear, the right to a good education, healthcare , access to the legal system etc that should not depend on personal wealth.

The Conservatives often think that the market should set the level of incomes. Labour that there is no correlation necessarily between what people earn and the value of the work they do.

Conservatives tend to think that if there is a safety net at all, it should be set at a level below what is really needed to live so that people will be persuaded to take low paid work which eg enables the company to make more profit and invest in research, pay out better dividends and pay sufficiently high incomes to their directors etc to attract the best talent.

Labour tends to think that everyone should have a decent income - eg every child should be well provided for regardless of the income of the parents, that jobs, education, opportunities should be 'ouvert aux talents' as Napoleon put it , not dependent on your wealthy back ground, your public school education etc.

Conservatives tend to think that most areas are better done by the private sector - that making money will incentivise a good service. Labour tends to think that some areas of national importance should be in public hands not possibly in the hands of foreign companies or not done at all because of lack of profitability.

In a nutshell Conservatives think the rich and talented need incentivising by offering very high salaries and perks : the poor need incentivising by offering poverty wages to make them work longer hours.
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Bang Outta Order
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#57
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Weird. Last time I checked brexiters were "racist chavs". You can be poor with proper values. And being right wing means you have proper values. I won't vote for a pretentious sham just because they preach to poor people about unity and hope whilst they skip off to their mansions as their voters still linger in poverty! Without poverty and inequality, left wing politicians would be nothing so they NEED poverty and inequality, and that's SICK.
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The Mogg
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#58
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#58
You can be not wealthy but still believe in things like conservatism, privatisation and capitalism (like myself )
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OriC13
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#59
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#59
You literally only need to look at voting statistics to see that this is completely incorrect- 2017 44% of people amongst C2DE voting Tory, as opposed to only 42% voting Labour, with a 13% increase of voters in C2 for tories since 2015 and 12% increase amongst DE. If you're going to characterise voting between the two main parties then you'd have better luck looking at age, with YouGov saying that for every 10years older someone is the likelihood of them voting tory goes up by "9 points". Class dealignment has been going on for nigh on 50 years now, and just because you hold an opinion or believe something is "a betrayal" of others in that class etc, doesn't mean the facts back you up.
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SteveyStack
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#60
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By looking at it that I way you make it sound like the conservatives are terrible and labour are incredible.

The conservatives take a far more realistic view of the world and set minimum standards which are tough. Ultimately they do not allow for the cushy lifestyle.

For me life should be tough if you refuse to work (can’t is another thing).

Labour under are a worrying thought as they will spend, spend, spend till there is nothing left. This is what will ruin a country. I don’t like the Conservatives but I will always vote for someone pragmatic over someone who lives in the clouds
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