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Mental Health at Oxbridge
Dear TSR members,
I have a conditional offer for 2008 entry into an Oxbridge college and in short, I am worried about the effect of taking up a place at Oxbridge on my mental health. I have never been diagnosed with depression or any mental illness but I spend a significant proportion in a state which makes me wonder I do suffer from something like this. I spend quite a lot of time feeling very upset about life and with myself and quite a lot more time feeling cross with myself because I feel pathetic that I am so upset when I am obviously a very lucky person compared with a lot of other people in the world. I have fantastic friends who tell me I work too hard all the time and that I just need to chill out because I will do fine, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed and am somewhat of a perfectionist in my work. I find it hard to ‘let go’ of something if I know I haven’t put every possible ounce of effort into it. Despite this, I flip between being highly motivated and the world’s best procrastinator, but then when I procrastinate I just get angry with myself again :s In the past, and again fairly recently, the pressure I put on myself has led me to self harm in a fairly mild way. I don’t really know where my negative thoughts stem from, but I think quite often it’s because I am disappointed with how I have performed, or if I find something a big struggle, but then it often becomes so much more than this in my head, if you see what I mean. I know the standards I set for myself are high, perhaps impossibly so, but I hate missing them.
Anyway, the real point of this post is to ask for advice on how likely it is Oxbridge will exacerbate any problems that I might have, relative I suppose to other universities. I’m also wondering if anyone else has been in my situation and what they did. Also just general advice/thoughts are very welcome of course.
Thank you to everyone in advance
xxxxx
I have a conditional offer for 2008 entry into an Oxbridge college and in short, I am worried about the effect of taking up a place at Oxbridge on my mental health. I have never been diagnosed with depression or any mental illness but I spend a significant proportion in a state which makes me wonder I do suffer from something like this. I spend quite a lot of time feeling very upset about life and with myself and quite a lot more time feeling cross with myself because I feel pathetic that I am so upset when I am obviously a very lucky person compared with a lot of other people in the world. I have fantastic friends who tell me I work too hard all the time and that I just need to chill out because I will do fine, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed and am somewhat of a perfectionist in my work. I find it hard to ‘let go’ of something if I know I haven’t put every possible ounce of effort into it. Despite this, I flip between being highly motivated and the world’s best procrastinator, but then when I procrastinate I just get angry with myself again :s In the past, and again fairly recently, the pressure I put on myself has led me to self harm in a fairly mild way. I don’t really know where my negative thoughts stem from, but I think quite often it’s because I am disappointed with how I have performed, or if I find something a big struggle, but then it often becomes so much more than this in my head, if you see what I mean. I know the standards I set for myself are high, perhaps impossibly so, but I hate missing them.
Anyway, the real point of this post is to ask for advice on how likely it is Oxbridge will exacerbate any problems that I might have, relative I suppose to other universities. I’m also wondering if anyone else has been in my situation and what they did. Also just general advice/thoughts are very welcome of course.
Thank you to everyone in advance
xxxxx
Scroll to see replies
Reply 1
11
We've just been talking about this a little bit in this thread: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=549746
No-one can say how the Oxbridge environment will affect you. However, you won't be the only one with those characteristics -- perfectionism, and all the associated problems, are understandably widespread in such an academic community.
Most people would probably agree that Oxbridge is a difficult place to be if you have mental health problems; and most people would probably agree that it is possible to deal with it so long as you are sensible and get the support you need, when you need it. There is a high proportion of mental disorder in the universities (to the irritating extent that if you go to the Drs in those towns they have been known to diagnose depression just because 'it's another Oxbridge student', which is not at all helpful, and very damaging to those who do actually have clinical depression, etc.).
You WILL need to change your work habits and expectations. Get used to the fact, now, that nothing will *ever* be "enough", and you will never be able to do your absolute 'best' -- more can always be done, and you will probably be very dissatisfied with most of your work. That's the way things are. It is more helpful to work hard, but learn to be satisfied with a good degree of *effort* put into your work, rather than the product itself. Learn to focus on the work ethic, rather than just what you hand in; and also the Oxbridge experience over the Oxbridge 'expectation' (or pre/mis-conceptions). Honestly, it's possible that Oxbridge could exacerbate any problems. At the same time, you may well find that a new situation changes you, and that you find new ways to cope, and new problems to deal with.
No-one, though, can be definitive...sorry! Rest assured that you wouldn't be alone, and wouldn't be unsupported.
No-one can say how the Oxbridge environment will affect you. However, you won't be the only one with those characteristics -- perfectionism, and all the associated problems, are understandably widespread in such an academic community.
Most people would probably agree that Oxbridge is a difficult place to be if you have mental health problems; and most people would probably agree that it is possible to deal with it so long as you are sensible and get the support you need, when you need it. There is a high proportion of mental disorder in the universities (to the irritating extent that if you go to the Drs in those towns they have been known to diagnose depression just because 'it's another Oxbridge student', which is not at all helpful, and very damaging to those who do actually have clinical depression, etc.).
You WILL need to change your work habits and expectations. Get used to the fact, now, that nothing will *ever* be "enough", and you will never be able to do your absolute 'best' -- more can always be done, and you will probably be very dissatisfied with most of your work. That's the way things are. It is more helpful to work hard, but learn to be satisfied with a good degree of *effort* put into your work, rather than the product itself. Learn to focus on the work ethic, rather than just what you hand in; and also the Oxbridge experience over the Oxbridge 'expectation' (or pre/mis-conceptions). Honestly, it's possible that Oxbridge could exacerbate any problems. At the same time, you may well find that a new situation changes you, and that you find new ways to cope, and new problems to deal with.
No-one, though, can be definitive...sorry! Rest assured that you wouldn't be alone, and wouldn't be unsupported.
Reply 2
I'm pretty much the same - part of the reason why I started that other thread! 
A big part of me is worried about missing out on the 'university experience' or just having time to do nothing - as much as I love a hectic pace of life and have coped with the five subject workload of this year, that doesn't mean I've enjoyed it. However, though this may be irrelevant to you it's probably worth saying that the times when I have been able to concentrate and produced something I really feel proud of (after massive motivation and concentration problems for the last year and feeling utterly inadequate, even to the slowly dying carnations on my beside table... 
) it's been great.
I suppose you can never know until you're there, and you may always wonder 'what if' if you don't go. On the other hand, gut instinct is a wonderful thing and if you really don't feel comfortable after visiting or with the concept of it then it may be better to go somewhere else - indeed, not every brilliant student in the world's come from Oxbridge.
But, as in the other thread, I'm worried that in looking back whatever distress the three years might entail won't be worth 'it', whatever 'it' turns out to be.
Edit: I pressed the wrong button.
A big part of me is worried about missing out on the 'university experience' or just having time to do nothing - as much as I love a hectic pace of life and have coped with the five subject workload of this year, that doesn't mean I've enjoyed it. However, though this may be irrelevant to you it's probably worth saying that the times when I have been able to concentrate and produced something I really feel proud of (after massive motivation and concentration problems for the last year and feeling utterly inadequate, even to the slowly dying carnations on my beside table... ) it's been great.I suppose you can never know until you're there, and you may always wonder 'what if' if you don't go. On the other hand, gut instinct is a wonderful thing and if you really don't feel comfortable after visiting or with the concept of it then it may be better to go somewhere else - indeed, not every brilliant student in the world's come from Oxbridge.
But, as in the other thread, I'm worried that in looking back whatever distress the three years might entail won't be worth 'it', whatever 'it' turns out to be.
Edit: I pressed the wrong button.
Reply 3
Aenrinn
I'm pretty much the same - part of the reason why I started that other thread! A big part of me is worried about missing out on the 'university experience' or just having time to do nothing - as much as I love a hectic pace of life and have coped with the five subject workload of this year, that doesn't mean I've enjoyed it.
A big part of me is worried about missing out on the 'university experience' or just having time to do nothing - as much as I love a hectic pace of life and have coped with the five subject workload of this year, that doesn't mean I've enjoyed it. Ha!
Not to bring a black cloud to the proceedings, but you can cast aside any notions of having a 'University Experience' at Oxford.
Well, not the experience you were expecting, anyway. I guess 'ceaseless toil' is a kind of university experience, but... yeah. It's not the kind you want.
As for the mental health; they send us mental health surveys quite frequently, actually, in the region of about once a term (to pretend that they care). Most of the questions are about how much money you spend on internet gambling, and how many bottles of scotch you drink a week. It's quite amusing, actually, when even the mental health tests assume you're the scion of a rich landowner and have money to fritter away on high-stakes online poker.
Reply 4
Psyonif
Ha!
Not to bring a black cloud to the proceedings, but you can cast aside any notions of having a 'University Experience' at Oxford.
Well, not the experience you were expecting, anyway. I guess 'ceaseless toil' is a kind of university experience, but... yeah. It's not the kind you want.
As for the mental health; they send us mental health surveys quite frequently, actually, in the region of about once a term (to pretend that they care). Most of the questions are about how much money you spend on internet gambling, and how many bottles of scotch you drink a week. It's quite amusing, actually, when even the mental health tests assume you're the scion of a rich landowner and have money to fritter away on high-stakes online poker.
Not to bring a black cloud to the proceedings, but you can cast aside any notions of having a 'University Experience' at Oxford.
Well, not the experience you were expecting, anyway. I guess 'ceaseless toil' is a kind of university experience, but... yeah. It's not the kind you want.
As for the mental health; they send us mental health surveys quite frequently, actually, in the region of about once a term (to pretend that they care). Most of the questions are about how much money you spend on internet gambling, and how many bottles of scotch you drink a week. It's quite amusing, actually, when even the mental health tests assume you're the scion of a rich landowner and have money to fritter away on high-stakes online poker.
Just to ask, you seem very disenchanted by the Oxford experience? This is also deduced from your other posts as well. Could you pinpoint any specific reasons to that?
Must say I do like your frankness!
Reply 5
fahadraja
Just to ask, you seem very disenchanted by the Oxford experience? This is also deduced from your other posts as well. Could you pinpoint any specific reasons to that?
Must say I do like your frankness!
Must say I do like your frankness!
Hey, I just calls 'em how I sees 'em.
Don't think that I vitriolicly dislike Oxford and everything about it... it has its moments, to be sure. But yes, your choice of words with "disenchanted" was spot on.
I was sold on the City of Dreaming Spires being some sort of intellectual wonderland where geniuses from around the world discussed Nietzche in oak-panneled sitting rooms, and you got intense, creative, one-on-one tutorial sessions from world-famed professors about the mysteries of the universe.
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if everyone didn't keep plugging the Dreaming-Spires-intellectual-wonderland myth.
But they do.
And it's a complete crock.
On topic, though, it has not caused me to go insane.
... Just extremely bitter and disillusioned at the place.
Reply 6
Psyonif
Hey, I just calls 'em how I sees 'em.
Don't think that I vitriolicly dislike Oxford and everything about it... it has its moments, to be sure. But yes, your choice of words with "disenchanted" was spot on.
I was sold on the City of Dreaming Spires being some sort of intellectual wonderland where geniuses from around the world discussed Nietzche in oak-panneled sitting rooms, and you got intense, creative, one-on-one tutorial sessions from world-famed professors about the mysteries of the universe.
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if everyone didn't keep plugging the Dreaming-Spires-intellectual-wonderland myth.
But they do.
And it's a complete crock.
On topic, though, it has not caused me to go insane.
... Just extremely bitter and disillusioned at the place.
Don't think that I vitriolicly dislike Oxford and everything about it... it has its moments, to be sure. But yes, your choice of words with "disenchanted" was spot on.
I was sold on the City of Dreaming Spires being some sort of intellectual wonderland where geniuses from around the world discussed Nietzche in oak-panneled sitting rooms, and you got intense, creative, one-on-one tutorial sessions from world-famed professors about the mysteries of the universe.
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if everyone didn't keep plugging the Dreaming-Spires-intellectual-wonderland myth.
But they do.
And it's a complete crock.
On topic, though, it has not caused me to go insane.
... Just extremely bitter and disillusioned at the place.
Like the post, good honest reasonings.
I have posted elsewhere, but I really want to go to Oxbridge for the Intellectual side. My university that is not an option, opinions, ideas and broader aspect and approach to our studies are not welcome. I genuinely want that experience from univeristy and I have this percieved image that Oxbridge may provide it. My fellow students do not have any desire to involve themselves into their studies. To them, out with a degree, walk into the city, with all the glory of its sex,drugs, money and no sleep!!! I am interested in the city but I want to do more than that down the line.
Well survive the degree atleast you could go into a top job!!! Oxford atleast provides that shame same can't be said about my uni!!!
Reply 7
Psyonif
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
And if you asked a question, this is exactly what you'd deserve. You want the answer? Read the textbook. There's your answer. I like my hangovers, and I like the JCR, and I'm not going to be delayed just because someone else aspires to omniscience. Copy the textbook at 4am, and use grammar-school-type pretension as a crutch. Point out minor spelling mistakes, and misuse Latin like everyone else.
Oxford was built on this, and we've done just about alright so far.
PS I'm genuinely not sure how serious this post is.
Reply 8
fahadraja
Like the post, good honest reasonings.
I have posted elsewhere, but I really want to go to Oxbridge for the Intellectual side. My university that is not an option, opinions, ideas and broader aspect and approach to our studies are not welcome.
I have posted elsewhere, but I really want to go to Oxbridge for the Intellectual side. My university that is not an option, opinions, ideas and broader aspect and approach to our studies are not welcome.
Oxford probably is a little better than other universities in regard to forcing you to think for yourself - mainly because the graduate students don't know the answer, but you're quite likely to get rusticated (that is, expelled) if you don't know the answer in time for the frequent practice tests (unless, that is, your dad and / or foreign study fees are paying for your college's new wing).
So if you're poor, this forces you to look stuff up on your own or get thrown out. Which is a powerful incentive to develop independent learning skills.
I genuinely want that experience from univeristy and I have this percieved image that Oxbridge may provide it. My fellow students do not have any desire to involve themselves into their studies. To them, out with a degree, walk into the city, with all the glory of its sex,drugs, money and no sleep!!! I am interested in the city but I want to do more than that down the line.
Well survive the degree atleast you could go into a top job!!! Oxford atleast provides that shame same can't be said about my uni!!!
Well survive the degree atleast you could go into a top job!!! Oxford atleast provides that shame same can't be said about my uni!!!
Well... I'm not being funny here, but you said you want honesty, so here goes:
If you want to actually learn your subject, and have a passion for it, I wouldn't go to Oxford.
Why? Because they give you too much work, frankly. Too much work even if you don't spend seven-eighths of your time drunk or consulting your Chinese-to-English dictionary. I find that the work is of the level whereby if you don't grasp all of a topic, in it's entirity, on your first go, you havn't got time to go over it more carefully and ask questions, because by then your deadline's looming for the next piece of work. So that prevents you from learning effectively, for one.
There's also no time to really get your teeth into a topic that interests you; you might want to write a particularly in-depth piece about Crime In The Soviet Union because it interests you, but when you have 3 other essays due in that week, it ain't gonna happen.
The Oxford teaching doctrine is, in essence, "Bury them under a mound of work and hope they get some knowledge lodged in their windpipe while desperately trying to claw their way out".
If you actually want to learn, you're probably better going somewhere else, that lets you work at a sensible pace. Then you can get into the things that interest you, and take the time to really understand as opposed to scrawl out something vaguely servicable in time for the absurdly early deadline, which is what happens at Oxford.
On the other hand, if you're a mercenary and just want to be able to pick up a massive paycheck from your future nepotism-attained job, Oxford is very much for you.
PS I'm genuinely not sure how serious this post is.
Ha!
This is what happens when it's 5.30 in the morning.
Why the hell am I still awake!?
Reply 9
11
epitome
Get used to the fact, now, that nothing will *ever* be "enough", and you will never be able to do your absolute 'best' -- more can always be done, and you will probably be very dissatisfied with most of your work.
This is so true and, to be honest, I have struggled so much so far (I'm a first year lawyer).
At school it was so much easier to gauge the level of work I was doing and the consolidation of learning. With an A-Level subject, you have the syllabus and know exactly what you need to learn. Add in some exam technique and knowledge of the AOs and it becomes much easier to feel confident in yourself that you will succeed. Here, it's completely different. We don't have a syllabus as such and when I am reading I constantly think "am I wasting my time? Should I be reading something else that is more relevant?". That's obviously the wrong way of going about it, but when time is limited and you know that the exams are approaching, it's important to ensure you maximise the utility of the time you spend studying.
I'm at the stage now where I am avoiding revising this easter because I know there is simply so much to cover and I don't want to start facing it. I knew coming to Cambridge would be academically challenging, but I guess I am realising the rigour of everything and lack of clarity probably isn't for me, so I will just have to make the best of it.
Reply 10
11
Psyonif
I get this too. It really pisses me off. In my supervisions, if I ask a question I get "read the textbook". Well what the **** is the point of the supervision system if you just get told to go and read the ****ing textbook?
Reply 11
To be honest, I think the majority of people who like the OP are perfectionists and get anxious about their work will be the same at any other top university. Even though other universities normally have fewer deadlines, you'll still be putting pressure on yourself throughout the course if that's the way you are.
I've never been a perfectionist, had any mental problems, nor been a naturally anxious person when it comes to my work, and I don't think Cambridge has changed this. I'm still pretty laidback and rarely get stressed out about work. The work is harder, definitely, and I myself work harder, but the only time I can recall being really stressed out about the work is in the few days before my exams last year started.
Maybe other people disagree, and think Oxbridge causes/worsens mental health problems, but I think university in general could do this, rather than specifically Oxbridge. The OP mentions being a perfectionist, and as others have mentioned, your best is never good enough. Your best might get you a good grade, but there is always something to be improved upon. Like Jcb, I find the lack of specific tasks leading up to an essay quite challenging (I do philosophy). At A-level, I just had to read the textbook/set text and then write the essay. Here, we have a long reading list which covers a broad topic, but the essay questions set are so specific that often I'll read a lot of the reading list but barely anything is relevant. When it comes to revision, I don't have time to read the whole reading list, so I start to worry that something will come up in the exam for which I have done no relevant reading. So I'd say if you're an arts student that might be something to consider. Sometimes I feel if I'd gone elsewhere, I might have been (academically) happier as a lot of philosophy exams at other universities are based heavily on lectures, with specific reading lists for each lecture.
I've never been a perfectionist, had any mental problems, nor been a naturally anxious person when it comes to my work, and I don't think Cambridge has changed this. I'm still pretty laidback and rarely get stressed out about work. The work is harder, definitely, and I myself work harder, but the only time I can recall being really stressed out about the work is in the few days before my exams last year started.
Maybe other people disagree, and think Oxbridge causes/worsens mental health problems, but I think university in general could do this, rather than specifically Oxbridge. The OP mentions being a perfectionist, and as others have mentioned, your best is never good enough. Your best might get you a good grade, but there is always something to be improved upon. Like Jcb, I find the lack of specific tasks leading up to an essay quite challenging (I do philosophy). At A-level, I just had to read the textbook/set text and then write the essay. Here, we have a long reading list which covers a broad topic, but the essay questions set are so specific that often I'll read a lot of the reading list but barely anything is relevant. When it comes to revision, I don't have time to read the whole reading list, so I start to worry that something will come up in the exam for which I have done no relevant reading. So I'd say if you're an arts student that might be something to consider. Sometimes I feel if I'd gone elsewhere, I might have been (academically) happier as a lot of philosophy exams at other universities are based heavily on lectures, with specific reading lists for each lecture.
Reply 12
14
It gets worse in science subjects (especially mine) when you don't have a textbook, rather booklets of notesheets various lecturers have decided to bestow upon us.
When I'm in term I seem to have no 'free time' per se, as there's always some sort of work to be done, either for a current or future deadline. All 'personal time' is actually time you accidentally misallocate because you can't be bothered to work anymore. Eventually, you realise that you can't possibly get ALL the work done, and so you prioritise to get the most essential and learnworthy stuff completed and then go out to the pub/pav/go assassinate someone.
Some of our supervisors are good, some are ****. However, I have to say that as a science student I've learnt loads in just two terms - maybe not as in depth as I would like, but enough to make me feel vaguely superior to friends in other unis. After all, that's the only thing keeping you sane isn't it? - the shred of hope that oxbridge will get you a little bit further in life
When I'm in term I seem to have no 'free time' per se, as there's always some sort of work to be done, either for a current or future deadline. All 'personal time' is actually time you accidentally misallocate because you can't be bothered to work anymore. Eventually, you realise that you can't possibly get ALL the work done, and so you prioritise to get the most essential and learnworthy stuff completed and then go out to the pub/pav/go assassinate someone.
Some of our supervisors are good, some are ****. However, I have to say that as a science student I've learnt loads in just two terms - maybe not as in depth as I would like, but enough to make me feel vaguely superior to friends in other unis. After all, that's the only thing keeping you sane isn't it? - the shred of hope that oxbridge will get you a little bit further in life
Reply 13
Psyonif
Hey, I just calls 'em how I sees 'em.
Don't think that I vitriolicly dislike Oxford and everything about it... it has its moments, to be sure. But yes, your choice of words with "disenchanted" was spot on.
I was sold on the City of Dreaming Spires being some sort of intellectual wonderland where geniuses from around the world discussed Nietzche in oak-panneled sitting rooms, and you got intense, creative, one-on-one tutorial sessions from world-famed professors about the mysteries of the universe.
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if everyone didn't keep plugging the Dreaming-Spires-intellectual-wonderland myth.
But they do.
And it's a complete crock.
On topic, though, it has not caused me to go insane.
... Just extremely bitter and disillusioned at the place.
Don't think that I vitriolicly dislike Oxford and everything about it... it has its moments, to be sure. But yes, your choice of words with "disenchanted" was spot on.
I was sold on the City of Dreaming Spires being some sort of intellectual wonderland where geniuses from around the world discussed Nietzche in oak-panneled sitting rooms, and you got intense, creative, one-on-one tutorial sessions from world-famed professors about the mysteries of the universe.
And then 3 years later I find myself sat in a cramped classroom (complete with rising damp and broken heating) with 20 other (bored) tweenagers, while a doctoral student only 3 years older than me transcribes answers unthinkingly off a crib sheet onto a whiteboard. The guy on my left is nursing a hangover, the guy on my right can't speak an intelligeble sentence of English, and if heaven forfend I deign to ask a question I will (a) recieve baleful stares from everyone else in the class for delaying their return to the JCR and thereby causing them to miss the first minute of Hollyoaks, and (b) recieve no real answer as said doctoral student dosn't know either.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if everyone didn't keep plugging the Dreaming-Spires-intellectual-wonderland myth.
But they do.
And it's a complete crock.
On topic, though, it has not caused me to go insane.
... Just extremely bitter and disillusioned at the place.
You should write a blog, if you don't already ;yes;
Reply 14
so... can anyone think of ANY good reasons to go to oxbridge aside from the chance of getting more money 20 years later?
Reply 15
17
I'm sure that Oxbridge is intensive far more than other universities. I'm quite suprised as to how much the op sounds like me (procrastination one minted and then intensley creative the next). I'm not a perfectionist but
It's a common personality trait in academic circles, amongst the sane and insane. Strangely enough, in an environment such as Oxbrdige, you can really thrive.
I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder (II) last year after years of investigation. Now, I'm not saying that you yourself have a mental health condition op (how am I able to make such a diagnosis) but perhaps it would be useful for someone to tell you what the student support services are like?
Are the staff quite sympathetic to stress or do they just brush it aside as being part of the Oxbrdige experience? What are the disability and mental health services like should the op need to make use of them?
I can only speak about Durham in which case I can say that staff are very understanding and will go to every length to help you.
It's a common personality trait in academic circles, amongst the sane and insane. Strangely enough, in an environment such as Oxbrdige, you can really thrive.
I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder (II) last year after years of investigation. Now, I'm not saying that you yourself have a mental health condition op (how am I able to make such a diagnosis) but perhaps it would be useful for someone to tell you what the student support services are like?
Are the staff quite sympathetic to stress or do they just brush it aside as being part of the Oxbrdige experience? What are the disability and mental health services like should the op need to make use of them?
I can only speak about Durham in which case I can say that staff are very understanding and will go to every length to help you.
Reply 16
20
samaleyo
so... can anyone think of ANY good reasons to go to oxbridge aside from the chance of getting more money 20 years later?
Because it can also be an amazingly worthwhile fun experience.
Yes, there's a lot of work, but I'm doing Medicine, I'd expect that anywhere. This place (TSR) is in many ways more stressful for me than Cambridge itself because people wind themselves up into such a frenzy.
Yes, sometimes I've felt like I'm going to sink because I can't possibly keep up and there's no way I'll ever know everything I'll need to know. But in spite of that, I've managed to make some of the best friends I've ever had, rowed for two years (which I never thought I'd do!) become a Brownie Leader, done various bits of community work and dabbled in music occasionally. And still come out with solid grades every year and most of my sanity intact.
I guess I'm lucky in that our supervisions have almost always been by fellows rather than grad students, and nobody's ever told us to go away and read the textbook. But I have been to lectures hungover, and supervisions so sleep deprived my supervisor had to make me coffee half-way through to keep me alive. So maybe I haven't made the most of the opportunities available, but so what? I'd have done that anywhere, and certainly don't feel like I've missed out on "the university experience" because of my choice of uni. I very quickly got out of the "whatever I do won't be good enough" way of thinking because I realised it would drive me crazy, and went more for "I'll get it done and find out how to do it better." It seems to have mostly worked so far.
If anything, Cambridge has been much better for me than anywhere else because the college system is so much more supportive than being one anonymous face in a sea of 10 000 others.
Oh, and even once you've nearly killed yourself over exams, May Week will make you feel like there's no place in the world you'd rather be.
Reply 17
11
Psyonif
Because they give you too much work, frankly. Too much work even if you don't spend seven-eighths of your time drunk or consulting your Chinese-to-English dictionary. I find that the work is of the level whereby if you don't grasp all of a topic, in it's entirity, on your first go, you havn't got time to go over it more carefully and ask questions, because by then your deadline's looming for the next piece of work. So that prevents you from learning effectively, for one.
There's also no time to really get your teeth into a topic that interests you; you might want to write a particularly in-depth piece about Crime In The Soviet Union because it interests you, but when you have 3 other essays due in that week, it ain't gonna happen.
There's also no time to really get your teeth into a topic that interests you; you might want to write a particularly in-depth piece about Crime In The Soviet Union because it interests you, but when you have 3 other essays due in that week, it ain't gonna happen.
Serious point, this. Oxbridge does overburden us with work, and it does get in the way of a certain other style of learning. *BUT* most people will naturally do the minimum to get by -- that's just what human nature is like -- so by asking for more, Oxbridge gets more. Ask someone to read 3 books and they might read 1 or 2; ask them to read 10 and they might read 5. If people are diligent and dedicated the massive exposure to new material that Oxbridge forces is incredibly exciting, and many people find it so. (That's not to say that the same people don't get incredibly frustrated at the same time. It's certainly one of the most common thing people complain about).
I have to object to the idea that there's no time to go into more depth on a topic, though -- most of the time, there is. It's just that most of us probably choose to fill that 'extra' time with things other than work. I know people here who, after writing their supervision essays, then continue into the evening writing their own, or doing their own reading. It depends more on priorities than anything else.
It is unfair and inaccurate to suggest that everyone here has the same experiences or attitude. Yes, there is always too much to do, and people will almost always have to take shortcuts; but to say that's always necessarily detrimental is too simplistic. Many people thrive in the fast-paced academic environment, and are stimulated and excited by the challenge. They will also get very annoyed occasionally with the sheer volume. So we don't necessarily have to think one thing *or* the other.
samaleyo
so... can anyone think of ANY good reasons to go to oxbridge aside from the chance of getting more money 20 years later?
Yes, many many reasons. But they are not necessarily applicable to everyone.
For me, a few of those reasons (absolutely NOT an exhaustive list): (1) the intelligence of so many people here is mind-boggling. Some people have complained that supervisions/seminars are a waste of time and full of lazy, disinterested people, and I have to admit that there have been occasions when I've felt the same. But outside the 'classroom' environment -- which frankly can intimidate people into silence -- people rarely fail to surprise me. The things people get up to, and are interested in, are amazing. And, whilst this happens to a large extent elsewhere, I would argue not in such concentration. (2) My course. I absolutely love it. I love the fact it is utterly insane, trying to study far too much in far too little time. I love the fact that the compulsory elements and high expectations have taken me out of my comfort-zone and opened up new ways of thinking and interests. (3) The supervision system. Yes, there are bad supervisors, but there are also absolutely amazing ones, and they are a very real and lasting inspiration. I will never forget some of the supervision I've had here, whatever job I end up doing. (4) The opportunities. Oxbridge has a very real 'can do' attitude, and people are encouraged (sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly) to DO THINGS and try stuff and follow things through and get good at it. And there's money there to back it up. Want to learn a language? Take up skiing and then become and instructor? Work in a lab? Go travelling? There's money there for pretty much everything, you just have to want to do it. The support I've had, and seen, to *do things* has been brilliant.
Money doesn't come into it, unless you're aiming for one of the particularly money-making jobs. Saying that, though, 'brighter' people are more likely to end up in the top jobs later in life (for obvious, meritocratic reasons), and they will get paid more because of that. Whilst it would be wholly untrue to say that all bright people go to Oxbridge (!Hardly!), it is fair to say that these universities have a greater proportion of the 'very bright'. And it would seem fair to say that those people are probably more likely to end up leading, or in 'top' jobs, so getting paid more. This is less an Oxbridge --> Highly Paid progression, than a Bright -->[Oxbridge]--> Good Job progression, if you see what I mean.
Personally, though, I am extremely likely to be getting paid far less than many of my my schoolfriends who left at 16 for a very very long time. *shrugs* It's not all about employment.
Reply 18
phew...
i was getting worried for a sec...
thanks for the reassurance though
i was getting worried for a sec...
thanks for the reassurance though
Reply 19
The teaching can be pretty cack. There are the amazing supervisions where you come out after an hour knowing more than a week in the library could have taught you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with grad students for teaching either, who can get you up to standard fast and are often excellent teachers (though it's true that ask them something off their crib sheet ... well you just learn not to).
A good proportion, whether grad student or professor, are pretty poor to get good teaching out of.
I've asked several supervisors for help recently, and all but one have just said 'sorry. you're right it's an important question that needs to be answered. I dunno though. maybe find a new supervisor?' The one who knew enough to help just moved away. Yet I suspect when I'm examined on this they'll just go 'oh dear, hasn't addressed this important point. 50'
I'm guessing we all just have over optimistic expectations from classroom teaching at school though, and that it certainly wouldn't be better, likely far worse at any other UK university.
A good proportion, whether grad student or professor, are pretty poor to get good teaching out of.
I've asked several supervisors for help recently, and all but one have just said 'sorry. you're right it's an important question that needs to be answered. I dunno though. maybe find a new supervisor?' The one who knew enough to help just moved away. Yet I suspect when I'm examined on this they'll just go 'oh dear, hasn't addressed this important point. 50'
I'm guessing we all just have over optimistic expectations from classroom teaching at school though, and that it certainly wouldn't be better, likely far worse at any other UK university.
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