For Britain party Watch

karl pilkington
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#1
Report Thread starter 9 months ago
#1
Thoughts on this party? I really like Anne Marie Waters. They seem like they have some pretty good ideas if you agree with hem then spread the word about them.
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Dez
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#2
Report 9 months ago
#2
Ah yes, the woman who was too islamaphobic even for UKIP. I'm sure her party will be a roaring success, just like the BNP and National Front.
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Davij038
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#3
Report 9 months ago
#3
It’s the bnp for the LGBT community.
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JaydorIV
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#4
Report 9 months ago
#4
ooh, I like them.
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You Kipper
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#5
Report 9 months ago
#5
Anne Marie Waters is too left wing- she may oppose violent Islam more then our waste of space career politicians but other than that she is nothing special- You could argue she falls under the Blue Labour ideology.
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Joe5001
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#6
Report 3 weeks ago
#6
Anne Maire Waters , is What we need She is Correct we need her
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Mossbourne
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#7
Report 2 weeks ago
#7
Urgh, not another one...
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TensorTympani
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#8
Report 2 weeks ago
#8
Oof
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Jebedee
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#9
Report 2 weeks ago
#9
(Original post by Dez)
Ah yes, the woman who was too islamaphobic even for UKIP. I'm sure her party will be a roaring success, just like the BNP and National Front.
Lucky it's a made up word with a faulty definition then isn't it.
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Burridge
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#10
Report 2 weeks ago
#10
(Original post by Jebedee)
Lucky it's a made up word with a faulty definition then isn't it.
I'm pretty sure islamophobia has a scholarly definition. It's as real as anti-semitism or any other form of racism.

But you're right insofar as it's a made up word, all words are made up I guess :borat:
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Jebedee
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Burridge)
I'm pretty sure islamophobia has a scholarly definition. It's as real as anti-semitism or any other form of racism.

But you're right insofar as it's a made up word, all words are made up I guess :borat:
Not really. The man who coined the phrase now regrets doing so after educating himself on the issue.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...-islamophobia/

It does have a poorly thought out definition which includes a dislike of "Muslims And Islam". Fear of Islam as a political force is far from irrational therefore cannot be a phobia.
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Burridge
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Jebedee)
Not really. The man who coined the phrase now regrets doing so after educating himself on the issue.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...-islamophobia/
The Runnymede Trust didn't coin the phrase, it had existed long before that report was published. It appeared in the Oxford English Dictionary in 1923.

I've just read the Spectator piece. Philips Sunday Times piece is behind a paywall, but from the direct quotes in the Spectator article, he doesn't seem to show any regret about using the word 'islamophobia' (which was specifically the point you made). What he seems to indicate is that there were profound pitfalls with the report that was produced in 1997, which is a separate debate entirely.

Not to mention, the man himself has been shrouded in controversy as of late. He's influential but certainly isn't a sole authority on the issue.

(Original post by Jebedee)
It does have a poorly thought out definition which includes a dislike of "Muslims And Islam". Fear of Islam as a political force is far from irrational therefore cannot be a phobia.
Ahh, that old chestnut. It's the equivalent is arguing that since some spiders are venomous and harmful to humans it'd be wrong to categorise arachnophobia as 'irrational'. Don't get too hung up on the semantics.
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Jebedee
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#13
Report 2 weeks ago
#13
(Original post by Burridge)
Ahh, that old chestnut. It's the equivalent is arguing that since some spiders are venomous and harmful to humans it'd be wrong to categorise arachnophobia as 'irrational'. Don't get too hung up on the semantics.
How is that a semantic argument? Can you not see the difference between criticism of an idea and criticism of people as humans?
Arachnophobia is more a western concept as poisonous spiders are very rare in most of the western world. Whereas the issues Trevor Phillips points to are not rare. I.e 52% of British Muslims wanting homosexuality illegal. I imagine if 52% of spiders in the UK were poisonous, the term arachnophobia would be revised or struck off.

In its defence, the dictionary definition of islamophobia does include the political force aspect. It's only pop culture and the media which have turned the word into a pejorative.
Last edited by Jebedee; 2 weeks ago
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fallen_acorns
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#14
Report 2 weeks ago
#14
googled them. Going through their page that says what they are:

summery:

-Anti-EU
-UK citizens are the priority
-Accountable public services
-Free speech
-Traditional British liberty
-Rights of the individual
-Capitalism
etc. etc.

They are UKIP.

Anyone reading their website will quickly realize, they are just UKIP.

UKIP is now seemingly breading with itself and creating babies.. from 1 party, we now seem to have 3, UKIP, For Britian, farages' new party (maybe more) who all stand for the exact same thing.

They all piss me off though, because they all get in the way of what I would really love to see which is an actual sensible non-racist conservative-leaning party form.

Right now if your on the conservative side of british politics your choice is:

New-labour in disguise (the current tory party)
or
A shambolic mess of poor leadership, fragmentation, racism, and generally incapable individuals (UKIP + clones)

There is no actual conservative, decent, traditionalist option, for those who are not racist, don't want to kiss the arse of big business, don't love or hate immigration, just want it in check, and just want to approach change a bit slower and with a bit more questioning and skepticism. An actual decent conservative option doesn't exist currently.
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QE2
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#15
Report 1 week ago
#15
(Original post by Burridge)
I'm pretty sure islamophobia has a scholarly definition.
No, it doesn't. It has an inherently flawed definition... "Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force" - OED
I'm sure you can see the problem there.
"Dislike of Islam, especially as a political force" is something that pretty much any rational, liberal, humanist would happily own up to.
"Prejudice against Muslims" is something those same people would be wholeheartedly opposed to.

It's as real as anti-semitism or any other form of racism.
If it is used to describe racism, then it is again a flawed term. The claim itself is somewhat racist as it implies that all Muslims are "brown foreigners" in some way.

Basically, anti-Muslim prejudice based on ethnicity is simply racism and xenophobia and should be called that. Do we have a specific term for racism against African Christians or Chinese Buddhists? When someone ridicules the idea of a multi-armed, elephant god are they branded a Hinduophobe and tarred with a racist brush?
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QE2
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#16
Report 1 week ago
#16
(Original post by Burridge)
Ahh, that old chestnut. It's the equivalent is arguing that since some spiders are venomous and harmful to humans it'd be wrong to categorise arachnophobia as 'irrational'. Don't get too hung up on the semantics.
Hardly an "old chestnut". The definition contains two entirely different and potentially contradictory concepts. Hardly "semantics".

Your analogy is not apposite as although some people do indeed have an irrational fear of Muslims (hence all the claims of the "Islamification of Britain", etc), that is not what the term "Islamophobe" attempts to describe.
There are four logically coherent definitions that should be employed:
1. Islamophobes - those people who fear that the country is being taken over by Muslims.
2. Racist xenophobes - those people who dislike Muslims because they are Brown Foreigners.
3. Liberals - those who criticise and oppose the unacceptable elements of Islamic ideology.
4. Rationalists - those who criticise and ridicule Islam for being a load of iron-age superstitious nonsense.

These definitions can be combined where appropriate. I am certainly a "Liberal Rationalist".
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Mossbourne
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#17
Report 1 week ago
#17
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
googled them. Going through their page that says what they are:

summery:

-Anti-EU
-UK citizens are the priority
-Accountable public services
-Free speech
-Traditional British liberty
-Rights of the individual
-Capitalism
etc. etc.

They are UKIP.

Anyone reading their website will quickly realize, they are just UKIP.

UKIP is now seemingly breading with itself and creating babies.. from 1 party, we now seem to have 3, UKIP, For Britian, farages' new party (maybe more) who all stand for the exact same thing.

They all piss me off though, because they all get in the way of what I would really love to see which is an actual sensible non-racist conservative-leaning party form.

Right now if your on the conservative side of british politics your choice is:

New-labour in disguise (the current tory party)
or
A shambolic mess of poor leadership, fragmentation, racism, and generally incapable individuals (UKIP + clones)

There is no actual conservative, decent, traditionalist option, for those who are not racist, don't want to kiss the arse of big business, don't love or hate immigration, just want it in check, and just want to approach change a bit slower and with a bit more questioning and skepticism. An actual decent conservative option doesn't exist currently.
The Brexit Party ≠ UKIP, we are not racist.
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fallen_acorns
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#18
Report 1 week ago
#18
(Original post by Mossbourne)
The Brexit Party ≠ UKIP, we are not racist.
you'll have to justify that for me.. because as far as I see it:
(if you are a brexit-party supporter)

Your policies are the same
Your leader is their old leader (the same)
Your voters are the same
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Mossbourne
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#19
Report 1 week ago
#19
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
you'll have to justify that for me.. because as far as I see it:
(if you are a brexit-party supporter)

Your policies are the same
Your leader is their old leader (the same)
Your voters are the same
The BP is essentially pre-referendum UKIP, which were not racist and did not employ racists in the same way they do now. I will gladly back the Tories when they elect a proper Brexiteer as leader
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