worth getting clutch/synchros checked out or just being a moron?

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OutKast
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#1
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2015 Toyota Aygo

When I'm driving and reach a situation where I need to downshift to second, I feel a pressure/resistance when moving the gearstick from neutral down to second. This pressure can be overcome- I've never been completely locked out of second. The pressure lessens a lot if I blip the throttle or if I'm downshifting to second whilst under around 10 mph.

- If the car is stationary, I can get the gear stick into 2nd (and all other positions) with no effort. The only issue is when the car is moving.

My questions are:
- do you think this is normal or should the gear stick be able to easily/ without resistance slip into second gear with the clutch engaged when driving 20-30+ mph?
- Does anyone know if potentially my clutch cable needing adjustment could cause such an issue?
- Any other thoughts/ opinions?

I will most likely take it to a mechanic sooner than later, but any nuggets of wisdom/ experience that I can beg from you guys would hopefully lessen the chance of me being taken for a ride by mechanics.
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Blue_Cow
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#2
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#2
(Original post by AnxiousMoron)
2015 Toyota Aygo

When I'm driving and reach a situation where I need to downshift to second, I feel a pressure/resistance when moving the gearstick from neutral down to second. This pressure can be overcome- I've never been completely locked out of second. The pressure lessens a lot if I blip the throttle or if I'm downshifting to second whilst under around 10 mph.

- If the car is stationary, I can get the gear stick into 2nd (and all other positions) with no effort. The only issue is when the car is moving.

My questions are:
- do you think this is normal or should the gear stick be able to easily/ without resistance slip into second gear with the clutch engaged when driving 20-30+ mph?
- Does anyone know if potentially my clutch cable needing adjustment could cause such an issue?
- Any other thoughts/ opinions?

I will most likely take it to a mechanic sooner than later, but any nuggets of wisdom/ experience that I can beg from you guys would hopefully lessen the chance of me being taken for a ride by mechanics.
Let a family member/experienced driver take it for a quick spin and see what they think.

There must be a trusted mechanic you can take it to for advice - ask friends/family
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Annonimous
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I would of thought trying to shift into 2nd at around 20-30mph would have some resistance due to the fact that 2nd gear is too low for that speed so the cars resistance is its way of telling you you're selecting the wrong gear.

1st gear - moving off
2nd gear - 5mph+-15mph
3rd gear -15mph+-30mph

If you want to shift into second, slow your car down below at least 18mph. Ideally it should be 15mph.
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OutKast
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#4
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#4
(Original post by nocturnalangel)
I would of thought trying to shift into 2nd at around 20-30mph would have some resistance due to the fact that 2nd gear is too low for that speed so the cars resistance is its way of telling you you're selecting the wrong gear.

1st gear - moving off
2nd gear - 5mph+-15mph
3rd gear -15mph+-30mph

If you want to shift into second, slow your car down below at least 18mph. Ideally it should be 15mph.
It's giving me resistance all the way down to just above 10 mph though
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IWMTom
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#5
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(Original post by nocturnalangel)
I would of thought trying to shift into 2nd at around 20-30mph would have some resistance due to the fact that 2nd gear is too low for that speed so the cars resistance is its way of telling you you're selecting the wrong gear.

1st gear - moving off
2nd gear - 5mph+-15mph
3rd gear -15mph+-30mph

If you want to shift into second, slow your car down below at least 18mph. Ideally it should be 15mph.
Heh, who gave you your figures? My car isn't even redlining at 60 in 3rd gear!
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Josh279
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(Original post by nocturnalangel)
I would of thought trying to shift into 2nd at around 20-30mph would have some resistance due to the fact that 2nd gear is too low for that speed so the cars resistance is its way of telling you you're selecting the wrong gear.

1st gear - moving off
2nd gear - 5mph+-15mph
3rd gear -15mph+-30mph

If you want to shift into second, slow your car down below at least 18mph. Ideally it should be 15mph.
2nd gear is too low for 30mph? I don't think so mate.
If I want to shift into second, I raise my engine revs up, not slow the car down. I can easily shift to second doing 45/50mph with no problems.
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Annonimous
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(Original post by Josh279)
2nd gear is too low for 30mph? I don't think so mate.
If I want to shift into second, I raise my engine revs up, not slow the car down. I can easily shift to second doing 45/50mph with no problems.
Why would you want to be in 2nd gear at 45/50mph anyway? using a higher gear at speeds like that, say, 4th/5th gear means its more eco and better for the engine, who tf drives at 50mph in 2nd
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Annonimous
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#8
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(Original post by IWMTom)
Heh, who gave you your figures? My car isn't even redlining at 60 in 3rd gear!
So you're telling me the figures I've given aren't what you're supposed to be driving at in relation to the gear? Okay mate, I think you need to go to your local waterstones and buy the most recent version of the highway code and have a little read.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/when...ange-gear.html

So we're all wrong except for you.
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IWMTom
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(Original post by Annonimous)
So you're telling me the figures I've given aren't what you're supposed to be driving at in relation to the gear? Okay mate, I think you need to go to your local waterstones and buy the most recent version of the highway code and have a little read.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/when...ange-gear.html

So we're all wrong except for you.
The Highway Code says nothing about the speed to change gear, numpty.

If you're trying to accelerate briskly, you rev the damn engine right through your power band before shifting up. No, it's not economical, and no, it's not how most people drive.

I was merely making a point that optimum shift points are different for every car, and every situation. A modern diesel will struggle to accelerate from 15mph in third gear.
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TheMcSame
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(Original post by Annonimous)
So you're telling me the figures I've given aren't what you're supposed to be driving at in relation to the gear? Okay mate, I think you need to go to your local waterstones and buy the most recent version of the highway code and have a little read.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/when...ange-gear.html

So we're all wrong except for you.

Might wanna double check your own source...

Each car has an optimal speed for each gear. The table below provides a general guide for what gear for which speed.
So not only does the highway code have NOTHING when it comes to changing gear. The gear you're supposed to be in at a certain speed is down to the car, and what you're doing with it.

Changing at the points you suggest, when trying to overtake, would be useless and outright dangerous. They're fine around town if your car can handle it without lugging, but they may not be the most efficient speeds to change at. Those speeds would probably be fine in a diesel, or a large petrol, but I'd have my doubts about trying that in say... A 1.0L citroen C1. Not to mention those speeds would be downright useless for climbing steep hills. There's a good hill just around the corner from me, you're not getting into 2nd gear climbing that thing unless you've got a lot of power. A HGV cab on it's own would probably get out of 1st gear, but most of them have 12-18 gears... Oh, did I forget to mention the engine that's putting out well over 1000Nm of torque. Even Scania's lowest offering, a 9 Litre diesel with a mere 280 BHP is putting out 1400Nm of torque.

(Original post by Annonimous)
Why would you want to be in 2nd gear at 45/50mph anyway? using a higher gear at speeds like that, say, 4th/5th gear means its more eco and better for the engine, who tf drives at 50mph in 2nd
No one would, but it shows that there should be no issue changing into 2nd gear, even at whatever speed the OP is doing.


OP, not sure what to tell you. Get someone you know to give it a drive and see how it is. If they say it's a bit odd, it might be worth getting it checked. I have a similar thing happen with 1st in my car, it's hard to get into gear unless you're going pretty slow, though from my understand the gearbox in my car doesn't have a synchro on 1st gear which is what causes this. So, based on that, I can only assume that it's something to do with the 2nd gear synchro, or maybe the locker ring. Maybe it's by design... Perhaps ask people with a same gen model and see if they have the same issue, some cars are just funny like that.
Old Fiestas for example could be a bit funny about changing into reverse, I've seen people say they've had this problem with Fiestas as far back as 1989, I have the same problem on my 2008 MK6 Fiesta, why? The gearbox. They all used a BC series (BC5 is the main culprit though) gearbox, though it was redesigned in 1995 and named IB5, but the IB5 is still basically the same gearbox, it was just redesigned to add some more modern features.
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PTMalewski
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#11
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#11
(Original post by AnxiousMoron)
- Does anyone know if potentially my clutch cable needing adjustment could cause such an issue?
- Any other thoughts/ opinions?

I will most likely take it to a mechanic sooner than later, but any nuggets of wisdom/ experience that I can beg from you guys would hopefully lessen the chance of me being taken for a ride by mechanics.
Yes, sounds like your clutch simply does not disengage the transmission fully.

Adjusting cable is simple, often it can be done even with bare hands, there should be an adjustment nut on cable next to the gearbox.

(Original post by Annonimous)

If you want to shift into second, slow your car down below at least 18mph. Ideally it should be 15mph.
No. Each car has different engine characteristics and transmission ratio so ideal speeds will be different.

However in most cars it is perfectly possible to kick down to second at much higher speeds. Sooner the powered wheels should skid, or engine blow up, rather than the stick shift give strong resistance. If it gives, then either the clutch doesn't disconnect the transmission, or the synchro is broken.


(Original post by Annonimous)
Why would you want to be in 2nd gear at 45/50mph anyway? using a higher gear at speeds like that, say, 4th/5th gear means its more eco and better for the engine, who tf drives at 50mph in 2nd
This is actually useful for engine braking, in case of brakes failure or on mountain roads - driving downhill in mountains such as Alps can easily cause brakes overheating if the car is driven without intensive engine braking. Also, if you're overtaking you should do this as fast as possible- for most cars it means using all the power available, which requires higher rpms. Depending on engine characteristics, for some engines it will be revving to 4 k, for some to 5, to 6, for some even to 8k.

As to the other things... Various cars have different engine characteristcsand transmission rations, so the perfect speeds for each gear or situation will vary,

I think it is much more appropriate and universal to learn what are the torque and power, and how to chose engine revs depending on situation and engine characteristics.
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IWMTom
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#12
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#12
(Original post by PTMalewski)
I think it is much more appropriate and universal to learn what are the torque and power, and how to chose engine revs depending on situation and engine characteristics.
Bang on. A good driver uses the sound and feel of the engine to know when they should shift.
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PTMalewski
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A driver should still know the theory behind.

My mother for example generally knew when to change gears, but it took me a while to teach to rev the engine high enough when overtaking.
She didn't rev more than to 4k, while in her's car it was better to rev up to 5k, but she was reluctant to do so 'because it roars so loudly'.
I guess if she ever got the cut off rpms she would think the car has broken down, while even those weaker max power to cut off rpms are sometimes useful.
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Menrva
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Maybe this is too obvious, but It just sounds like to me that you are selecting an inappropriate gear for your speed. All cars are different, I have a Toyota Yaris (which I guess shouldn't be too dissimilar to an Aygo) and I noticed that I had to move up the gears pretty quickly. I get into 2nd gear almost immediately after driving off so like 5-10mph. If I was in 2nd gear whilst doing 20-30 mph my car would be crying or even anything above 15mph and it would be a bit unhappy. If I am downshifting I only ever get into 2nd if I have slowed my speed right down or if I'm coming to a near stop (so less than 10mph).
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IWMTom
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#15
(Original post by PTMalewski)
A driver should still know the theory behind.

My mother for example generally knew when to change gears, but it took me a while to teach to rev the engine high enough when overtaking.
She didn't rev more than to 4k, while in her's car it was better to rev up to 5k, but she was reluctant to do so 'because it roars so loudly'.
I guess if she ever got the cut off rpms she would think the car has broken down, while even those weaker max power to cut off rpms are sometimes useful.
Touché.
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PTMalewski
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#16
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#16
(Original post by Menrva)
Maybe this is too obvious, but It just sounds like to me that you are selecting an inappropriate gear for your speed. All cars are different, I have a Toyota Yaris (which I guess shouldn't be too dissimilar to an Aygo) and I noticed that I had to move up the gears pretty quickly. I get into 2nd gear almost immediately after driving off so like 5-10mph. If I was in 2nd gear whilst doing 20-30 mph my car would be crying or even anything above 15mph and it would be a bit unhappy. If I am downshifting I only ever get into 2nd if I have slowed my speed right down or if I'm coming to a near stop (so less than 10mph).
No,
As I said, If you kick down at way to high speed you can even skid the powered weels, or blow the engine up, but the stick shift should not give any resistance or just slightly more than normally. If it gives much resistance or there is a grind noise, then either the clutch does not disengage the transmission properly, or the synchro is broken.

Still there are occasions when it is necessary to kick down at relatively higher speeds, and that is why the gearbox should be capable of allowing it.
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Menrva
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
No,
As I said, If you kick down at way to high speed you can even skid the powered weels, or blow the engine up, but the stick shift should not give any resistance or just slightly more than normally. If it gives much resistance or there is a grind noise, then either the clutch does not disengage the transmission properly, or the synchro is broken.

Still there are occasions when it is necessary to kick down at relatively higher speeds, and that is why the gearbox should be capable of allowing it.
It could be a clutch issue, but I have read that some people disregard similar problems as a common Toyota characteristic. My own Toyota gear changes can feel a bit stiff at times, particularly going from 1st to 2nd. It's never been noted as a problem by a mechanic.

The Aygo in particular has been noted to have a notchy and reluctant manual gearbox shift action.

But obvious answer to the OP is to get it checked over by a mechanic just to be sure.
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Nuffles
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#18
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(Original post by Menrva)
Maybe this is too obvious, but It just sounds like to me that you are selecting an inappropriate gear for your speed. All cars are different, I have a Toyota Yaris (which I guess shouldn't be too dissimilar to an Aygo) and I noticed that I had to move up the gears pretty quickly. I get into 2nd gear almost immediately after driving off so like 5-10mph. If I was in 2nd gear whilst doing 20-30 mph my car would be crying or even anything above 15mph and it would be a bit unhappy. If I am downshifting I only ever get into 2nd if I have slowed my speed right down or if I'm coming to a near stop (so less than 10mph).
You need to learn to love the song of the 3 cylinder people! The 17 plate Aygos we have at work only become fun above like 4k rpm and when you get up there they're screaming and begging for more. One of the good things about those little engines is that the love being absolutely thrashed. They sound like little rally cars as well.

To OP. It sounds like the synchro is a little worn on second gear, although this is unlikely on such a new car. This is possibly from shifting into second at too high of a speed. You shouldn't really need to shift into second gear unless you're moving quite slowly. Rev-match downshifting will help prevent wear to the synchros. You can either learn to rev-match downshift now which will probably alleviate your problem, or you can have the oil in your gearbox changed which will most likely help, but if you keep on putting it into second at too high of a speed you'll start to burn the gearbox oil again.
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PTMalewski
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#19
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(Original post by Nuffles)
You shouldn't really need to shift into second gear unless you're moving quite slowly. Rev-match downshifting will help prevent wear to the synchros.
This requires double-clutching, and won't work if it's just the clutch link adjustment issue.

Why everybody keep pointing at synchros, while it maybe just a clutch link adjustment issue, which is corrected in 5 minutes with bare hands?
There is a nut on the cable, often plastic, which adjusts the length of the cable. If it's too long, then the clutch may not disengage transmission fully, and then the best synchros won't work properly.

Some gearboxes give just slightly more resistance when doing a kick down at higher rpms, but this resistance should be very very little, and usually it vanishes if you move the stick shift just a little bit slower, so the synchro gets more time to do the more difficult work,
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Nuffles
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
This requires double-clutching, and won't work if it's just the clutch link adjustment issue.

Why everybody keep pointing at synchros, while it maybe just a clutch link adjustment issue, which is corrected in 5 minutes with bare hands?
There is a nut on the cable, often plastic, which adjusts the length of the cable. If it's too long, then the clutch may not disengage transmission fully, and then the best synchros won't work properly.

Some gearboxes give just slightly more resistance when doing a kick down at higher rpms, but this resistance should be very very little, and usually it vanishes if you move the stick shift just a little bit slower, so the synchro gets more time to do the more difficult work,
I've never once seen a car in which you can adjust the clutch cable without tools. There'd be nothing to stop the adjusting nut backing off when repeatedly put through stress cycles when using the clutch. The cable adjustment on my partner's car uses two 10mm nuts locked together and requires two spanners to break them free, at which point it can be adjusted by hand.

If it were a clutch issue then OP would more likely have issues with other gears, especially reverse. Second and third gear are much harder on the synchros than other gears because you shift into them the most so the synchros are more likely to wear/fail faster than on other gears.
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