Why do people hate Communism so much? Watch

username1738683
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#21
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A big misconception is that those means of production we are all supposed to share and enjoy would be there just as capitalism and democracy have delivered them, they just wouldn't and all this dreamed equality would be made up mostly of poverty. It is a cardinal sin not to learn the history of the world, it is impossible to understand it otherwise.
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Help_Me_Pls_Eghh
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#22
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(Original post by zhog)
Because they didn't want Communism on their doorstep any more than the Soviets did with Democracy on theirs?
Technically but its deeper than that, "they attempted to kill him 638 times to be exact simply because Cuba despite the interference was doing well, extraordinarily well, revealing that capitalism was not as perfect as it portrayed itself to be. So they decided to try to kill him because they thought he could potentially incite a revolution in america."
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Help_Me_Pls_Eghh
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#23
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(Original post by floating samosa)
what would be the incentive to come to work every day if ur not gaining for urself
You gain more. Not only would you be helping EVERYONE who lives in the same country as you, but also yourself, by working you would pay taxes that in turn pay for everything you need...
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username1738683
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(Original post by Help_Me_Pls_Eghh)
Technically but its deeper than that, "they attempted to kill him 638 times to be exact simply because Cuba despite the interference was doing well, extraordinarily well, revealing that capitalism was not as perfect as it portrayed itself to be. So they decided to try to kill him because they thought he could potentially incite a revolution in america."
I agree, there is always an element of that. We can equally say the Soviets didn't want Democracy on their doorstep for the same reasons and that they killed a lot of people in the countries that formed a buffer zone between them and the West. Or that China always supported NK because they didn't want their poor people peering over the fence and seeing what Capitalism did for others. In Cuba's case, the missile-crisis was quite influential too.

So all I'm saying is that, on that front, nothing to tell them apart.
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floating samosa
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(Original post by Help_Me_Pls_Eghh)
You gain more. Not only would you be helping EVERYONE who lives in the same country as you, but also yourself, by working you would pay taxes that in turn pay for everything you need...
no i meant what does the individual get out of it for themselves, in essence how can they put themselves above the rest. That's the driving force behind human ingenuity. the" how can i be better than him" mentality is key for survival or else u loose purpose and just give up
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Help_Me_Pls_Eghh
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(Original post by floating samosa)
no i meant what does the individual get out of it for themselves, in essence how can they put themselves above the rest. That's the driving force behind human ingenuity. the" how can i be better than him" mentality is key for survival or else u loose purpose and just give up
We are group animals, have you considered that the 'mentality' you speak of is just a another part of capitalism imprinted upon you to encourage you to rise above other while leaving them below you; as I said earlier we are group animals, we need to work together if we wish to prolong human existence other wise humanity will be bound to go extinct in the next 2000 years. In communism rather than being better than others you are encouraged to help others!

If you still don't agree consider my anecdote:

A man lives with a tribe in a snowy mountain, he is stronger as well as faster than the others:

The tribe has very little food but a mammoth is in the area,

he is presented with two options, he could go after the mammoth himself, it is extremely risky but he would receive the praise of the tribe and could take the largest portion or he could go with the others, teach them how to be better while lowering the risk for himself but receive less praise, in a thousand years the man would be forgotten despite his decision but the decisions consequences would not; he would be dead as would be his tribe thus making his decision almost redundant, BUT if he chose to help the others and teach them rather than going for self gain they would remember and pass down their skills to their children and like that the tribe would progress further...

I know this is extremely pessimistic but we will all be dead and likely forgotten in 150 years but our actions will still be imprinted on society, so do you choose to make a long term decision that helps a multitude of others, or the short term decision that helps you now for self gain that will be forgotten...


(I know this is long winded but I hope you get my point.)
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ChaoticButterfly
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#27
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A good rule of thumb is not to place those in charge of things who think they have "ideological perfection"

Sincerely,

a communist
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Sven_778
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#28
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(Original post by Andrew97)
20 million killed by Stalin
45 million killed by Mao
1.5-3million killed by Pol Pot

Not exactly a rosy past....
And those are all conservative estimates aswell, wouldn’t surprise me if it was much more than that
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fallen_acorns
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#29
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I find arguments about communism normally very boring.

It just goes in circles...

X - I think communism in theory is a great idea!
Y - But in the only practical examples, it failed badly
X - But they didn't implement correctly as stated in my chosen theory
Y - But no one ever has, and they are the only examples
Repeat for 400 posts.

For me the much more interesting argument is one of scale. Forgetting Marxism and communism specifically, communal living clearly does work on a small scale - and throughout human history it has proved highly successful as a model for running anything from families to small communities. But it tends to fall apart when scaled upwards. I personally wonder if there is a sweet spot between the necessity for competition and capitalism that a nation and humanity in general requires, and the benefits that communal policies can have for towns/communities.

Right now it feels to me that we have swung to far towards competition/capitalism/greed in general, and whilst I would enjoy a swing back in the other direction, the proposals from the left are all to large in scale and national in scale to seem feasible to me. I guess I want more local communal policies, and less national and international communal policies, as that's the scale where I can clearly see good evidence of communal ideals being a huge success and benefit to those living there.
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samhughessss
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#30
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(Original post by MarxistCommunist)
Right, so at least as far as I'm concerned Communism is the best economic and political ideology ever invented. No, I do not mean Soviet 'Communism', Chinese 'Communism', Cuban, North Korean, Vietnamese, Yugoslav, etc, etc, 'Communism'. As far as I'm concerned, those are all closer to Fascism than they are to real Communism in the sense that Marx envisioned (except Chinese 'Communism', that is closest to a Bourgeois Dictatorship).

So in case you didn't know exactly what I mean by this, I mean a highly decentralised, united world state where the collective resources of society produced by workers according to their ability all across the globe are pooled and redistributed according to need (ie if you biologically have a fast metabolism, you need more food than someone with slow metabolism, a healthy person doesn't need medication, etc), and then excess commodities and goods are completely equally distributed. The ideas of society shift, because, to directly quote the Communist Manifesto:

"Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man's ideas, views and conceptions, in one word, mans consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?What else does the history of ideas proeve, than that intellectual production changrs in chartacter in proportion as material production is changed? The ruling ideas of each age have ever been the ideas of it's ruling class."

Towards a mindset where, instead of being driven to great deeds by a motive for profit, they are instead motivated by a desire to help others, which helps themselves, because in a Communist society the condition for the betterment of the self is the betterment of all.

Before anyone argues "oh but then what if I do more work than this person why do I get paid the same", this is even more prevalent in Capitalist society. A doctor is a member of society many times more valuable and more hard working than a footballer, and yet a footballer is paid an order of magnitude more money than a doctor is. Equally, while you might scoff at a lowly sewage worker, or a bin man, claiming they do no real work and are lucky to get the salaries they have, consider for a moment what your street would look like if those menial workers decided to stop working for even a fortnight, and then decide whether or not those workers do an important, difficult job.

So, then, it is clear to me that Communism, as a theory, and presumably in practice (although obviously after letting Capitalism mature, then going through Socialsm, to gradually reform into Communism), is ideological perfection. Why, then, do people hate it so much? People seem to hate it almost as much as Nazism!
It can be abused. In theory communism works in reality it doesnt.
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hehwhat
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#31
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Yea but does the fact that it's done to maintain the result of the revolution excuse the fact that they then -pretty much inevitably- go on to commit mass genocides and atrocities?
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Underscore__
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#32
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(Original post by Lechatn0ir)
I will disregard my own opinions on the effectiveness of communism as an ideology and answer your question. People hate Communism because most of them are not aware of the distinction between an ideal communism approach and the brand of communism that is spread by Russia. This connotes dictatorship/ corruption/ economic stagnation. I don’t blame them considering that is the most developed type of Communism and the closest that Marxism was widespread
If I tell you it’s possible to hold you breath under water for half an hour and people keep trying and failing and I say ‘they weren’t doing it properly’ - how long before you say ‘I don’t think it’s possible’?
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floating samosa
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#33
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(Original post by Help_Me_Pls_Eghh)
We are group animals, have you considered that the 'mentality' you speak of is just a another part of capitalism imprinted upon you to encourage you to rise above other while leaving them below you; as I said earlier we are group animals, we need to work together if we wish to prolong human existence other wise humanity will be bound to go extinct in the next 2000 years. In communism rather than being better than others you are encouraged to help others!

If you still don't agree consider my anecdote:

A man lives with a tribe in a snowy mountain, he is stronger as well as faster than the others:

The tribe has very little food but a mammoth is in the area,

he is presented with two options, he could go after the mammoth himself, it is extremely risky but he would receive the praise of the tribe and could take the largest portion or he could go with the others, teach them how to be better while lowering the risk for himself but receive less praise, in a thousand years the man would be forgotten despite his decision but the decisions consequences would not; he would be dead as would be his tribe thus making his decision almost redundant, BUT if he chose to help the others and teach them rather than going for self gain they would remember and pass down their skills to their children and like that the tribe would progress further...

I know this is extremely pessimistic but we will all be dead and likely forgotten in 150 years but our actions will still be imprinted on society, so do you choose to make a long term decision that helps a multitude of others, or the short term decision that helps you now for self gain that will be forgotten...


(I know this is long winded but I hope you get my point.)
so on a large scale such as england or the world what's stopping people rising up and grabbing power for themselves.
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MarxistCommunist
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#34
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#34
(Original post by gjd800)
It's the greatest no true Scotsman fallacy to ever exist that we see being defended here, really.
Well, if you know about Marxist doctrine, and you read the books written by Marx and Engels, then you know that the Soviet Union, China, etc are nothing like what they wanted and what they advocated for.
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MarxistCommunist
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Underscore__)
If I tell you it’s possible to hold you breath under water for half an hour and people keep trying and failing and I say ‘they weren’t doing it properly’ - how long before you say ‘I don’t think it’s possible’?
Using an example like holding your breath underwater is as silly as a primary school teacher chastising a child for throwing a paper plane because their friend told them to do it because 'if your friend told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?' or 'if your friend told you to put your hand in a fire, would you do it?' While holding your breath underwater for 30 minutes is a biological impossibility, unless you're a tortoise, or a mutant fish person, or something, Communism is a utopia that requires specific conditions for existance (ie; post-scarcity, mature Capitalism, etc), and it is very possible that, as in the Soviet Union, you (debatably) attempted Communism under conditions that doomed it to fail.
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cxlvin
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Because if I dedicate years of my life studying, I want to benefit from it beyond feeling more accomplished. It's just human nature, which is why this stuff will never be successfully implemented.
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Lechatn0ir
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(Original post by Underscore__)
If I tell you it’s possible to hold you breath under water for half an hour and people keep trying and failing and I say ‘they weren’t doing it properly’ - how long before you say ‘I don’t think it’s possible’?
Please tell me this example was a joke? How is the biological capability of an individual comparable to a whole dytopian system that requires many, many elements including those of human nature(which is unpredictable- itself depends on many factors) comparable?!

This is besides the point. I came here to answer your question as to why- not to justify it. Not prepared for someone to try and overturn my own beliefs.. especially with really irrelevant ‘proof by hypothetical analogy with 0 correlation to the topic’.
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MarxistCommunist
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#38
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#38
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
I guess I want more local communal policies, and less national and international communal policies, as that's the scale where I can clearly see good evidence of communal ideals being a huge success and benefit to those living there.
Exactly, as under Communism the state and the planet is highly decentralised, only really united under the ideology of Communism, as opposed to a country.
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username4003948
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(Original post by MarxistCommunist)
Right, so at least as far as I'm concerned Communism is the best economic and political ideology ever invented. No, I do not mean Soviet 'Communism', Chinese 'Communism', Cuban, North Korean, Vietnamese, Yugoslav, etc, etc, 'Communism'. As far as I'm concerned, those are all closer to Fascism than they are to real Communism in the sense that Marx envisioned (except Chinese 'Communism', that is closest to a Bourgeois Dictatorship).

So in case you didn't know exactly what I mean by this, I mean a highly decentralised, united world state where the collective resources of society produced by workers according to their ability all across the globe are pooled and redistributed according to need (ie if you biologically have a fast metabolism, you need more food than someone with slow metabolism, a healthy person doesn't need medication, etc), and then excess commodities and goods are completely equally distributed. The ideas of society shift, because, to directly quote the Communist Manifesto:

"Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man's ideas, views and conceptions, in one word, mans consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?What else does the history of ideas proeve, than that intellectual production changrs in chartacter in proportion as material production is changed? The ruling ideas of each age have ever been the ideas of it's ruling class."

Towards a mindset where, instead of being driven to great deeds by a motive for profit, they are instead motivated by a desire to help others, which helps themselves, because in a Communist society the condition for the betterment of the self is the betterment of all.

Before anyone argues "oh but then what if I do more work than this person why do I get paid the same", this is even more prevalent in Capitalist society. A doctor is a member of society many times more valuable and more hard working than a footballer, and yet a footballer is paid an order of magnitude more money than a doctor is. Equally, while you might scoff at a lowly sewage worker, or a bin man, claiming they do no real work and are lucky to get the salaries they have, consider for a moment what your street would look like if those menial workers decided to stop working for even a fortnight, and then decide whether or not those workers do an important, difficult job.

So, then, it is clear to me that Communism, as a theory, and presumably in practice (although obviously after letting Capitalism mature, then going through Socialsm, to gradually reform into Communism), is ideological perfection. Why, then, do people hate it so much? People seem to hate it almost as much as Nazism!
In every Communist society to have existed to date, there has still existed extreme wealth concentrated in the hands of a small and corrupt ruling elite, there has still existed extreme poverty (particularly for rural farmers and industrial workers) and those in between have experienced an overall lower quality of life. The whole idea of communism is to make society 'fairer' and to improve the overall standard of living across the whole of society. What it's actually accomplished everywhere it's been attempted is to lower living standards for everybody except the central committee of the ruling party. Essentially it's enforced uniform mediocrity for everybody except those in charge, who get to do as they like with impunity. Even if you are a member of the elite ruling circle, you're paranoid and insecure because you'll know that every 10ish years the party will purge and replace its leadership, which has been the modus operandi of near enough every communist party in power ever.

Communism has historically proved incompatible with civil rights. If you even remotely allude to criticism of how the state is run, you're going to abruptly disappear (case in point, present day China, Stalin's Russia etc), probably never to be seen again until somebody stumbles on a mass grave full of bones fifty years later and sets about trying to identify whose bones they are. You don't even have to allude to criticism of the state either, everybody is encouraged to snitch on one another to the secret police for any minor personal slight or transgression of some ridiculous moral code dreamed up by some moron who you can bet your left arm doesn't practice what they preach. The state apparatus will be massive on account of all the many rules they'r required to enforce, the resources required to decide who does what job for how much pay, how the wealth is distributed, to manage all the nationalised industry etc etc. Large bureaucracies are pretty much always horrifically inefficient and a nightmare for getting things done. A huge bureaucratic state needs high taxes to fund itself, which equates to lower average wealth per capita for citizens.

Most countries (except, perhaps the US, China and Russia) do not have the natural resources necessary to be completely self-sufficient. Therefore, the majority of countries have no choice but to have some reliance on trade with other countries. Just because your country has enforced uniform pricing for various commodities set by the government, doesn't dictate that your neighbouring countries have any incentive to conform to your tariffs. Chances are in fact that they're going to rip you off just because your purchasing power is pretty limited.

"People seem to hate is almost as much as Nazism" duh... the Nazis killed an estimated 6 million people as part of the 'final solution'. Estimates for deaths attributable to Stalin's policies are around 20-25 million. Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge killed at least 1.5 million, believed to be closer to 3 million and Cambodia is still pretty ****ed and far from recovered from that ****-storm. Mao's Chinese revolution is believed to have killed around 45 million, and dissenters in China have been abruptly disappearing from the face of the earth ever since.

Sure, Communism is a great idea, in theory. But it doesn't work in practice because humans are fundamentally self-interested, the world is inherently competitive and hierarchical. That goes for all species too, not just us humans. Why don't you go and try telling a silverback gorilla or the alpha lion of the pride on the savanna that it's not fair they keep all the females for themselves and get the first pick of all the food? Anybody own a cat and tried telling it off when it catches a small garden bird or a mouse? I mean ****ing hell, try telling girls/women they should be equally interested in dating short, undernourished men just as much as they want to date 6+ foot well built guys. They'll give various excuses and rationalisations but subconsciously they know that bigger man = superior genes.

Fairness is a completely imaginary concept which exists only in the human mind. Capitalism is the economic equivalent of survival of the fittest and natural selection, except it allows us the potential to change our economic status and nature has little scope for directly improving our individual genetic characteristics. Sure, capitalism leaves space at the bottom for terrible poverty but it also allows potential for utter brilliance and high attainment. Seeing others great success gives us something to aspire to, seeing people is also kind of an incentive in that you'll strive to avoid getting into that situation or to get out of it if you're in it.

Communism is the economic equivalent of our modern medical system where illness and death is always terrible and unnecessary and a horrible waste. Because keeping somebody 'alive' whilst drugged up to their eyeballs, ******** and pissing in bags, plugged into a pacemaker, carrying around an oxygen cylinder with the breathing mask stuck to their face - is obviously a great standard of life.
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Reue
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