Why do people hate Communism so much? Watch

Inlexed
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#81
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Because communism requires everyone to be equal and half these people don't even deserve it, also in the long term, this ideology would NEVER work. People in school wouldn't have to work due to the fact that they know they will be treated the same no matter how hard they work. No positions would be filled for any jobs, we are already struggling with computer scientists, imagine how little there would be without the incentive of money. This society is DOOMED to fail. That's why we hate it so much.
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TheTroll73
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#82
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#82
communism does not work in the long term

history taught us this

that's why
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FakeNewsEditor
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#83
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
I have made an error if I've given the impression I think it's all, or only, a matter of equitable distribution of resources. Indeed it's not, technically, about that at all, it's really about equitable benefit from resources the starting point of which is either universal non-ownership or universal collective ownership. Once you have owners and non-owners you create unequal social and economic power and the rest is, as they say, history.
I am not sure universal non-ownership gets you anywhere. If nobody owns anything, then anybody can take anything. This piece of land is nobody's so I can actually do whatever I want with it. Burn it, put a fence around it, w/e.

And universal collective ownership is what I describe above. We all own, say, a store. We're all equal shareholders in it. That won't give you equality if people are freely allowed to dispose of their shares as they see fit. You need a ban on people selling their shares unless a particular sell is compatible with your "equality of benefits" idea. Which is not really owning that share is it.
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Axiomasher
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#84
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(Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
As I said, those economic circumstances (unequal distribution of wealth) can result from freely made choices people make beginning from a total position of equality of resources (or whatever kind of pattern you'd like - people with lower IQs getting more share of the land and natural resources or /we).

To say that that situation would be somehow akin to slavery is absurd. People had the exact same amount of holdings (or "capital" ) at t=0, they freely contracted with one another and at t=1, Kobe Bryant is a millionaire and I'm washing dishes for some semi-literate Chinese restaurant owner in Manchester. Truly similar to slavery?
I'm not sure what you are arguing here. I don't actually accept the assertion that the unequal distribution of the earth and its resources has come about through a matrix of 'freely made choices' way back when (quite the opposite in fact). But it makes no difference to me anyway as I'm one of those people (I know I'm horrible) who thinks property is equal to theft because it amounts to a monopolisation of a unique portion of the earth (or its resources). Labour relations under modern capitalism are in most cases experientially quite different to slavery of previous eras but there's still, in my view, a coercive component (to some extent) for the reasons I've given.
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FakeNewsEditor
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#85
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
I'm not sure what you are arguing here. I don't actually accept the assertion that the unequal distribution of the earth and its resources has come about through a matrix of 'freely made choices' way back when (quite the opposite in fact). But it makes no difference to me anyway as I'm one of those people (I know I'm horrible) who thinks property is equal to theft because it amounts to a monopolisation of a unique portion of the earth (or its resources). Labour relations under modern capitalism are in most cases experientially quite different to slavery of previous eras but there's still, in my view, a coercive component (to some extent) for the reasons I've given.
I didn't say it has come about like that. I said even if it had come about like that, you'd still not like the result. So it is a red herring to talk about how private property really came about, I don't know why socialists put it forward as some major argument in their favour. I thought a thought experiment, not an actual real world situation.
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Axiomasher
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#86
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(Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
I am not sure universal non-ownership gets you anywhere. If nobody owns anything, then anybody can take anything. This piece of land is nobody's so I can actually do whatever I want with it. Burn it, put a fence around it, w/e.

And universal collective ownership is what I describe above. We all own, say, a store. We're all equal shareholders in it. That won't give you equality if people are freely allowed to dispose of their shares as they see fit. You need a ban on people selling their shares unless a particular sell is compatible with your "equality of benefits" idea. Which is not really owning that share is it.
Obviously universal non-ownership would have to be legally protected. There have been 'commons' in the past which operated in this kind of way. I'm more inclined to universal collective ownership though. In your example you seem to be imagining things through a normative capitalist prism. We collectively 'own' the NHS but we don't all have a day to day say in how it functions or how its services are distributed.
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Axiomasher
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#87
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(Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
I didn't say it has come about like that. I said even if it had come about like that, you'd still not like the result. So it is a red herring to talk about how private property really came about, I don't know why socialists put it forward as some major argument in their favour. I thought a thought experiment, not an actual real world situation.
Again, I don't get what point you're trying to make. I'm not actually arguing about the origins of private property, I've even said that I don't ultimately think it matters for this discussion, rather it is the principle and consequences of private property that I would object to.
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Old Contemptible
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#88
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Because it's a flawed political system that may sound PASSABLE on paper, but in reality, when implemented, it is revealed to be complete b o l l o c k s

(Original post by MarxistCommunist)
Right, so at least as far as I'm concerned Communism is the best economic and political ideology ever invented. No, I do not mean Soviet 'Communism', Chinese 'Communism', Cuban, North Korean, Vietnamese, Yugoslav, etc, etc, 'Communism'. As far as I'm concerned, those are all closer to Fascism than they are to real Communism in the sense that Marx envisioned (except Chinese 'Communism', that is closest to a Bourgeois Dictatorship).

So in case you didn't know exactly what I mean by this, I mean a highly decentralised, united world state where the collective resources of society produced by workers according to their ability all across the globe are pooled and redistributed according to need (ie if you biologically have a fast metabolism, you need more food than someone with slow metabolism, a healthy person doesn't need medication, etc), and then excess commodities and goods are completely equally distributed. The ideas of society shift, because, to directly quote the Communist Manifesto:

"Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man's ideas, views and conceptions, in one word, mans consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?What else does the history of ideas proeve, than that intellectual production changrs in chartacter in proportion as material production is changed? The ruling ideas of each age have ever been the ideas of it's ruling class."

Towards a mindset where, instead of being driven to great deeds by a motive for profit, they are instead motivated by a desire to help others, which helps themselves, because in a Communist society the condition for the betterment of the self is the betterment of all.

Before anyone argues "oh but then what if I do more work than this person why do I get paid the same", this is even more prevalent in Capitalist society. A doctor is a member of society many times more valuable and more hard working than a footballer, and yet a footballer is paid an order of magnitude more money than a doctor is. Equally, while you might scoff at a lowly sewage worker, or a bin man, claiming they do no real work and are lucky to get the salaries they have, consider for a moment what your street would look like if those menial workers decided to stop working for even a fortnight, and then decide whether or not those workers do an important, difficult job.

So, then, it is clear to me that Communism, as a theory, and presumably in practice (although obviously after letting Capitalism mature, then going through Socialsm, to gradually reform into Communism), is ideological perfection. Why, then, do people hate it so much? People seem to hate it almost as much as Nazism!
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Trinculo
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#89
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The bit I don't get is that so many people seem to think that Communism is good in theory, but not in practice. It's awful in theory and worse in practice.

Thirty minutes of rationale discussion should make it clear to anyone why it's utterly failed.
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T.P.Bunghole
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#90
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Because in practice it's just fascism with slightly better PR.
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