A bit of British history for foreign students studying here . . .

Watch
NJA
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 2 years ago
#1
Feel free to share whatever national or local history you think may be of interest to our international guests . . .

Stonehenge has an outer wall 360-feet in dia. it was the "great circle of the Ambresbiri" - the Holy Anointed ones (see also Ambresbury Banks in Epping Forrest). The stone circle is 1163 British inches in dia. so the circumference is only a whisker away from the "Solar Circle" of 3,652.42 (no. days in the solar year). The alignment at sunrise of mid-summer's day and other factors show that it, and others like it around the World were places of worship and astronomical calculation, and the builders used the same units at those of the Great Pyramid. Phonecia gets it's name from the Phoenix palm, which is in turn named after the first Phonecian. These people arrived from the East after Noah's Flood. Phoenix is the Greek rendition of Egyptian Pa-Hanok, the house of Enoch.

Avebury Circle is known as Caer Abiri: “stronghold / citadel of the Hebrews”, Eber (from where we get Hebrews) means coloniser, literally to cross over. A similar stone circle is found in Darabgerdin Iran. Both are approached from east and west by a mile-long avenue of standing stones. Silbury Hill is to the South.
Name:  Avebury2.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  157.3 KB

The Cymri called these high places of worship Gorsedds, i.e. "High Seats", where the king of chieftain, the clergy and freemen assembled to enact law and justice, their Parliament. Parliament Hill in London was called Llan-din (sacred eminence) in Welsh, where London gets it's name. The Tower of London was erected on Bryn Gwyn, i.e. hill white, or as we say, White Hill. Westminster Abbey to the west had another circle and a Druid College named Tothill (the hill has been levelled, Tothill Street remains). The site of St Paul's was another one and finally, he Windsor Gorsedd, or Win-de-Sieur - Whie/holy mount of the Sieur/Lord remains the seat of the Monarch.

Druid seats of learning were effectively universities/colleges that attracted people from across Europe. Examples are Caer Leil (Carlisle), Caer Brit (Brsitol), Caer Werllan (Verulam, i.e. St Albans), Caer Badden (Bath) and CaerLlyr (Leicester).

Attachment 772378
1
reply
hagbardceline
Badges: 5
Rep:
?
#2
Report 2 years ago
#2
Archaeology tells us quite a lot about prehistoric/historic sites in Britain, it might be worth including some of this information so that you are giving people a (relatively) accurate overview.

We have no idea what Stonehenge was originally called. It was built in several phases in the period c. 3100-1600BC, long before written records.

What is the relevance of the Phoenicians in a paragraph about Stonehenge?

Fun fact - Stonehenge is not actually a henge! Avebury is however.

It's a good idea for a thread but if you want to educate international visitors it's probably advisable to begin with the more well-understood information and preface the more folkloric interpretations as such.
2
reply
NJA
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#3
Report Thread starter 2 years ago
#3
(Original post by hagbardceline)
Archaeology tells us quite a lot about prehistoric/historic sites in Britain, it might be worth including some of this information so that you are giving people a (relatively) accurate overview.
Feel free to add what you know.

(Original post by hagbardceline)
We have no idea what Stonehenge was originally called. It was built in several phases in the period c. 3100-1600BC, long before written records.
Druids and Bards were tasked with faithfully spreading this information, they have no reason to be dishonest as they would soon be "out of business".

(Original post by hagbardceline)
What is the relevance of the Phoenicians in a paragraph about Stonehenge?
Professor George Rawlinson writes of them:
"... the people who first discovered the British Isles and made them known to mankind at large, the people who circumnavigated Africa, ...As ship builders, as navigators, as merchants, as miners, as metallurgists, as dyers, as engravers of hard stones, as engineers, they surpassed all who preceded them, and were scarcely surpassed in later times by many. They were the great pioneers of civilisation, and by their boldness, their intrepidity, and their manual dexterity, prepared the way for the triumphs of later but more advanced nations. They adventured themselves, in many cases, where none had ever gone before them, entrusted themselves to fragile boats, dared the many perils of the unknown seas"


The ancient Indian Vedas also speak of them as the able Panch. They brought their science and religion with them from the Middle East. Stonehenge helped in their calculations of seasons for these things.
They "Mother" Barat is seen on their coins and is the pre-cursor of Britannia. Brutus of Troy having formerly names the isle Britain on his arrival in 1100BC. There remains a Brutus stone on display in Cannon Street London, and in Totnes High Street.

Name:  Britannia.jpg
Views: 64
Size:  68.0 KB
0
reply
NJA
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#4
Report Thread starter 2 years ago
#4
The Phonecians were largely Israelites as Solomon stationed 10,000 men there and used their shipbuilding and maritime skills in his own navy that he sent "to the ends of the Earth" to seek treasure, animals and plants. Their main trading base was Spain, they became known as the Merchants of Tarshish.
The trading with Britain (especially the South West) became strong due to the tin there, essential for making brass which forms harder weapons and tools, essential for supremacy ... this is a main reason why the Romans send 5 of their best generals in various campaigns to secure the Cassiterites ("The Tin Isles" ).

The main port in Spain was modern Cadiz, when this fell to the Romans the Merchants sailed to Britain, we have had a strong Naval tradition ever since.
The ships cat tradition also persists, cats were brought from the Middle East, they were useful in getting rid of mice on board and in the new homes in Britain.


Picture: Phoenician sarcophagus, Cadiz c.450BC, male holds a pomegranate. she an alabaster perfume jar.
Attached files
0
reply
Pwyll
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#5
Report 2 years ago
#5
Most of the explanations you give here are either controversial or spurious.
(Original post by NJA)
It's original name was Cor Gawr, pronounced "Choir Goar": choir of the giants,
The Welsh name for Stonehenge meaning 'choir of the giants' is Côr y Cewri. The first attestation of this that I can find is the Brut Dingestow in the 13th century. Cor Gawr on the other hand seems to be an early modern corruption. 'Choir' is in no way the pronunciation of cor, simply an English translation of it.
(Original post by NJA)
Avebury Circle is known as Caer Abiri: “stronghold / citadel of the Hebrews”, Eber (from where we get Hebrews) means coloniser, literally to cross over.
Can you provide even one citation of this name in Welsh sources?
(Original post by NJA)
Parliament Hill in London was called Llan-din (sacred eminence) in Welsh, where London gets it's name. The Tower of London was erected on Bryn Gwyn, i.e. hill white, or as we say, White Hill. Westminster Abbey to the west had another circle and a Druid College named Tothill (the hill has been levelled, Tothill Street remains). The site of St Paul's was another one and finally, he Windsor Gorsedd, or Win-de-Sieur - Whie/holy mount of the Sieur/Lord remains the seat of the Monarch.
I don't know why you make these claims as if they're undisputed fact. The etymology of 'London' (and the Welsh form Llundain) is still contested, but your theory seems rather unlikely since the earliest known form is Londinium which literally predates the divergence of the Welsh language from Brittonic. 'Win-de-Sieur' is a quaint suggestion. Don't most people propose an Anglo-Saxon derivation?
(Original post by NJA)
Druid seats of learning were effectively universities/colleges that attracted people from across Europe. Examples are Caer Leil (Carlisle), Caer Brit (Brsitol), Caer Werllan (Verulam, i.e. St Albans), Caer Badden (Bath) and CaerLlyr (Leicester).
I'd be very interested if you could provide citations for these names. You can have Caerlŷr since Nennius's History of the Britons mentions Cair Lerion. Likewise Carlisle although Caerliwelydd (< Cair Ligualid in Nennius). Bath is properly Caerfaddon. Interestingly Nennius does mention Cair Britoc but Bristol is otherwise Caerodor (mostly Bryste in later Welsh though), Bristol probably not being a Celtic word. Werllan < Verulamium looks obvious enough but where did you get it from?
(Original post by NJA)
Druids and Bards were tasked with faithfully spreading this information, they have no reason to be dishonest as they would soon be "out of business".
Druids have been out of business for quite a while now.
1
reply
NJA
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#6
Report Thread starter 2 years ago
#6
(Original post by Pwyll)
...The Welsh name for Stonehenge meaning 'choir of the giants' is
(Original post by Pwyll)
Côr y Cewri. The first attestation of this that I can find is the Brut Dingestow in the 13th century. Cor Gawr on the other hand seems to be an early modern corruption. 'Choir' is in no way the pronunciation of cor, simply an English translation of it.
Fair comment, I have removed that dis-information


(Original post by Pwyll)
I don't know why you make these claims as if they're undisputed fact. The etymology of 'London' (and the Welsh form
(Original post by Pwyll)
Llundain) is still contested, but your theory seems rather unlikely since the earliest known form is Londinium which literally predates the divergence of the Welsh language from Brittonic.

Seems unlikely, isn't Londimium latin? i.e. the later Roman version of Llandain

(Original post by Pwyll)
'Win-de-Sieur' is a quaint suggestion. Don't most people propose an Anglo-Saxon derivation?

I don't know what most people propose but I do know the Anglo Saxons came after the original Celtic Britions.

(Original post by Pwyll)
I'd be very interested if you could provide citations for these names. You can have
(Original post by Pwyll)
Caerlŷr since Nennius's History of the Britons mentions Cair Lerion. Likewise Carlisle although Caerliwelydd (< Cair Ligualid in Nennius). Bath is properly Caerfaddon. Interestingly Nennius does mention Cair Britoc but Bristol is otherwise Caerodor (mostly Bryste in later Welsh though), Bristol probably not being a Celtic word. Werllan < Verulamium looks obvious enough but where did you get it from?


From a list in a secondary source book, but it is also to be found online, here for example. Since you have confirmed or given minor corrections to the examples, here are the rest:

Cair Caint: Canterbury; Caer Wyn: Winchester; Caer Coel: Colchester;
Caer Don: Doncaster; Caer Gouris: Warwick; Caer Lleyn: Lincoln;
Caer Gloyw: Gloucester; Care Cei: Chichester; Caer Dwr: Dorchester;
Caer Merddin: Caermarthen.


(Original post by Pwyll)
Druids have been out of business for quite a while now.
They had old testament teaching of one God and a coming Messiah, so, with the coming of Christianity they were replaced. I am also informed that Druid comes from the Welsh:
dar (superior) wydd (priest).
0
reply
Pwyll
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#7
Report 2 years ago
#7
(Original post by NJA)
Fair comment, I have removed that dis-information

Seems unlikely, isn't Londimium latin? i.e. the later Roman version of Llandain

I don't know what most people propose but I do know the Anglo Saxons came after the original Celtic Britions.

From a list in a secondary source book, but it is also to be found online, here for example. Since you have confirmed or given minor corrections to the examples, here are the rest:

Cair Caint: Canterbury; Caer Wyn: Winchester; Caer Coel: Colchester;
Caer Don: Doncaster; Caer Gouris: Warwick; Caer Lleyn: Lincoln;
Caer Gloyw: Gloucester; Care Cei: Chichester; Caer Dwr: Dorchester;
Caer Merddin: Caermarthen.


They had old testament teaching of one God and a coming Messiah, so, with the coming of Christianity they were replaced. I am also informed that Druid comes from the Welsh: dar (superior) wydd (priest).

Welsh didn't emerge until roughly the 6th century. When the Romans arrived, the Britons spoke one language called Common Brittonic. Londinium is certainly a Latin version of the original name. You can see the same with other Roman settlements: Verulamium < Verulamion; Camulodunum < Camulodunon. Obviously many such names are hypothetical and were reconstructed on the basis of surviving Celtic names (i.e. on inscriptions) and by working back from the sound changes in the Celtic languages. So the usual theory nowadays is that Londonium < something like Londinion but there are some difficulties explaining Llundain (and the English forms) as a descendant of this. Such a simple Welsh compound as Llan-din (or another one, Llyn-din) is improbable, not least because at the time din was dunon (or dunum in Latinised form). 'Lann(d)odunun' or 'Lindodunon' are a long way from Londinium.

  • Caergaint is uncontroversially Canterbury. Both mean the fort of the Kentish (or Cantii). Kent is still called Caint in Welsh.
  • Winchester was Venta Belgarum, or the marketplace of the Belgae. Venta is a Celtic word which you can see in the name Gwent, and Caerwent in Monmouthshire was Venta Silurum, the venta of the Silures. But in Winchester is called Caerwynt. Nennius mentions a Cair Guintguic.
  • Colchester is unresolved. It was Camulodunum, which became the Roman colony of Colonia Victricensis, and Nennius mentions a place called Cair Colun, so one idea is that the Col- in Colchester = Colonia. But Colchester lies on a river Colne, and the name can be found in the local area, so some people think this suggests might have a Celtic origin. In the Historia Regum Britanniae by Geoffrey of Monmouth, Coel is associated with Cair Colun, so you could call it Caer Coel but then again all of this is legendary and there isn't any other evidence for it.
  • Doncaster was the Roman Danum. Nennius has a Cair Daun, and Doncaster is also on the river Don, which was allegedly named after a Celtic deity Dôn.
  • Warwick is supposedly an English name weir-wick. Caer Guoric sounds suspiciously like Warwick, and there doesn't seem to be any archaeological evidence for a large Celtic or Roman settlement there. Some older Welsh dictionaries give Caerweir for Warwick, but this name is also applied to Durham.
  • Lincoln was the Roman Lindum Colonia, from the British Lindon, from which the Welsh word llyn = 'lake' is derived. So a logical name would be Caer Llyn or Caerlyn but I haven't found any use of this. Caer Lleyn is close but obviously lleyn means something else in Welsh. It could be a corruption, but unless we can trace this name in Welsh sources it's probably an incorrect attempt to guess the origin of Lindum. Lincoln used to be identified with Nennius's Cair Luit Coyt (or Caerlwytgoed / Caerlwydgoed) but lwytgoed ('grey wood) is equivalent to Letocetum (Letocaiton), a Roman settlement close to Lichfield, which received its name.
  • Caerloyw is accepted as Glevum or Gloucester. Gloyw means 'bright' in modern Welsh.
  • Chichester is called Caerfuddai or Caergei but I don't know anything more for certain about these names. It was the Roman Noviomagus, presumably 'new field.'
  • Dorchester was called Durnovaria, which Asser mentions as Durngueir. Durno- is apparently Welsh dwrn ('fist' so Caer Dwr isn't too outrageous but I have no idea if it was ever used. The second element is controversial.
  • Carmarthen is Caerfyrddin in Welsh. It was called Moridunum (Moridunon in Brittonic) which is 'sea fort' so myrddin probably comes from Moridunum rather than the place being 'Myrddin's fort.'

My point about Windsor was that Win-de-Sieur requires an element of French, but references to Windsor predate the Conquest, making an English origin for the name much more likely.

Derwydd tends to be explainedas *doru (derw = oak) + *weyd (yielded in Welsh gwydd = knowledge, related to gwybod = know; there are lots of other gwydd words with different meanings though). Dar is supposed to have been *deru. It's possible, I suppose.

Interestingly, that link to R. W. Morgan's The British Kymry calls St. Albans Caer Municip, which agrees with Nennius (Cair Mincip). Verulamium possessed the status of a municipium so this is not entirely inexplicable. In his other book Saint Paul in Britain (of the credibility of his claims I shan't comment), he does give Caer Werllan as the older name of Caer Municipium in his list of the seats of flamens and arch-flamens from Gildas and also that Geoffrey of Monmouth found the same in 'the Armorican version of Tyssilio's history.' I assume this means the Brut Tysilio. People used to think this might be Geoffrey's Welsh source for the HRB but modern scholarship considers it to be one of the several Welsh derivatives of Geoffrey's own work. I haven't checked the Brut Tysilio yet but either Werllan comes from the Welsh translations of Geoffrey or R. W. Morgan made it up himself.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Do you have the space and resources you need to succeed in home learning?

Yes I have everything I need (288)
55.71%
I don't have everything I need (229)
44.29%

Watched Threads

View All