Deceptive but Quick Maths Questions for mostly year 7s-9s

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Tommy Mac
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I'm helping run my school's Maths society/club, for mostly year 7s-9s but also other years. I'm making a quiz with maths questions that appear easy but are actually deceptive, but each question has a 20 second time limit. Does anyone have any suggestion questions / know where I can look for some? Thanks in advance
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Infinite Series
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What's 9 + 10?
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M4cc4n4
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(Original post by Grade A)
What's 9 + 10?
thats easy =21
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vicvic38
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So you want to trick them?

That's not a good way of teaching maths to kids. I actually fully disagree with it. You're teaching them that maths is all about seeing stupid in-obvious things, and that they should second guess every question they are given. You can do deceptive questions, but not like this.:argh:

I do have some ideas, but you aren't getting any.

:getmecoat:
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P.Ree
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(Original post by vicvic38)
So you want to trick them?

That's not a good way of teaching maths to kids. I actually fully disagree with it. You're teaching them that maths is all about seeing stupid in-obvious things, and that they should second guess every question they are given. You can do deceptive questions, but not like this.:argh:

I do have some ideas, but you aren't getting any.

:getmecoat:
it's for a maths society g

like the kids just go there for fun and he gives them some fun questions.
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by vicvic38)
So you want to trick them?

That's not a good way of teaching maths to kids. I actually fully disagree with it. You're teaching them that maths is all about seeing stupid in-obvious things, and that they should second guess every question they are given. You can do deceptive questions, but not like this.:argh:

I do have some ideas, but you aren't getting any.

:getmecoat:
Perhaps I didn't word this correctly, my mistake. The idea is for questions that require a certain amount of thought, as opposed to just jumping straight out to you. What would you propose a suitable type of question would be?
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vicvic38
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(Original post by P.Ree)
it's for a maths society g

like the kids just go there for fun and he gives them some fun questions.
Yeah, but deliberately setting out to deceive the kids in an environment where they can't think about the answers? When doing these sorts of things, they should be given space to realise the nuance of the question at hand themselves. Not 20 seconds and an answer key that goes:

Wrong. Wrong. WRONG.

He is asking us to help him set up kids to fail.

:unimpressed:
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Infinite Series
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
Perhaps I didn't word this correctly, my mistake. The idea is for questions that require a certain amount of thought, as opposed to just jumping straight out to you. What would you propose a suitable type of question would be?
Have a look at the UKMT maths challenges. They aren't 'trick' questions, but they'll certainly make people think
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by vicvic38)
Yeah, but deliberately setting out to deceive the kids in an environment where they can't think about the answers? When doing these sorts of things, they should be given space to realise the nuance of the question at hand themselves. Not 20 seconds and an answer key that goes:

Wrong. Wrong.WRONG.

He is asking us to help him set up kids to fail.

:unimpressed:

The aim is for a bit of mental arithmetic, a few nuanced questions, and a bit of fun with some slightly alternative questions. I appreciate your point, what would you recommend I do in place?
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by Grade A)
Have a look at the UKMT maths challenges. They aren't 'trick' questions, but they'll certainly make people think
I'll have a look, thank you for giving a constructive type of question to look at
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Infinite Series
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
I'll have a look, thank you for giving a constructive type of question to look at
No problem
What else do you do in this maths society? Do you host events?
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vicvic38
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
Perhaps I didn't word this correctly, my mistake. The idea is for questions that require a certain amount of thought, as opposed to just jumping straight out to you. What would you propose a suitable type of question would be?
Well, disjunctive reasoning questions are fun. Try this one on for size:

Andy is looking at Betty. Betty is looking at Chris.

Andy is married, Chris is not married.

Is a married person always looking at an unmarried person? Is there enough information to decide?

I'll let you try to work it out.

Answer:
Spoiler:
Show


The answer is yes! Either Betty is married, or she is not married. If she is not married, then Andy is looking at her, and so our condition is met.

If she is married then Andy looking at her does not fulfil the condition, however Betty looking at Chris does, therefore a married person is always looking at an unmarried person.



When explaining the result, the proof that an irrational number to the power of an irrational number can be rational is a good example of this line of reasoning. That's if they know the laws of indices.

Proof:
Spoiler:
Show


Let
sqrt(2)sqrt(2) = x
xsqrt(2) =sqrt(2)sqrt(2)*sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)2 = 2
If x is rational, that's great, our condition is met(it isn't but that is unimportant.) If it isn't rational, we raise it to the power of an irrational number, and it is rational!


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vicvic38
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
I'll have a look, thank you for giving a constructive type of question to look at
YOu can use logic problems and tricks, as formal logic is mathematics. Have a look at a few Professor Layton puzzles.
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by vicvic38)
Well, disjunctive reasoning questions are fun. Try this one on for size:

Andy is looking at Betty. Betty is looking at Chris.

Andy is married, Chris is not married.

Is a married person always looking at an unmarried person? Is there enough information to decide?

I'll let you try to work it out.

Answer:
Spoiler:
Show



The answer is yes! Either Betty is married, or she is not married. If she is not married, then Andy is looking at her, and so our condition is met.

If she is married then Andy looking at her does not fulfil the condition, however Betty looking at Chris does, therefore a married person is always looking at an unmarried person.




When explaining the result, the proof that an irrational number to the power of an irrational number can be rational is a good example of this line of reasoning. That's if they know the laws of indices.

Proof:
Spoiler:
Show



Let
sqrt(2)sqrt(2) = x
xsqrt(2) =sqrt(2)sqrt(2)*sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)2 = 2
If x is rational, that's great, our condition is met(it isn't but that is unimportant.) If it isn't rational, we raise it to the power of an irrational number, and it is rational!



I like the idea of the reasoning question, thank you. I'm not too sure about the irrationality proof in a competition context, but Ilike the idea, thank you
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by Grade A)
No problem
What else do you do in this maths society? Do you host events?
Yeah, so we do various competitions, try and show them some other maths topics they may not have covered, and other activities with playing around with maths.

(We haven't started doing it yet, we've just got to organise some activities and sessions, thought a quiz was good to start off with)
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vicvic38
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
I like the idea of the reasoning question, thank you. I'm not too sure about the irrationality proof in a competition context, but Ilike the idea, thank you
Its more of a mathematical application of a fairly interesting concept to introduce to them after you've explained it.

Lewis Carroll (yes the Alice in wonderland bloke) did a long line of logic books with statements where you have to make reasoned conclusions from what is given. He was first and foremost a mathematician with a specialism for formal logic, after all.
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by vicvic38)
Its more of a mathematical application of a fairly interesting concept to introduce to them after you've explained it.

Lewis Carroll (yes the Alice in wonderland bloke) did a long line of logic books with statements where you have to make reasoned conclusions from what is given. He was first and foremost a mathematician with a specialism for formal logic, after all.
That sounds really interesting, I'll check that out. Thakns
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mqb2766
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diagnosticquestions.com
is pretty good for this (and has a fair number of ukmt questions built into it)
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Tommy Mac
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(Original post by mqb2766)
diagnosticquestions.com
is pretty good for this (and has a fair number of ukmt questions built into it)
Ill check it out ty
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mqb2766
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(Original post by Tommy Mac)
Ill check it out ty
Bit more awake this morning .. .. The
* Extension Mathematics (alpha, beta, gamma) by Tony Gardner (OUP)
books are "ready made" topics for years 7 - 9 and with a good set of questions which promote exploring a diverse set of topics
* parallel.org.uk
by Simon Singh sets weekly topics / problems.
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