Accept that Terrorists can be Muslim Watch

Professional G
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Blackpanther93)
I don’t understand your point here. How exactly are they suppose to go about speaking out against those who wish to promote terrorism ? What makes you think people with terrorist ideas will suddenly give up? Muslims speak out all the time. I Luton and here as well, like someone has already mentioned there are so many events and assemblies and social media pages made by Muslims that condemn terrorism. I don’t understand how the community is responsible to speak out against these people ? What makes you think people will listen to them now even though they have been speaking out for years? How exactly is the Muslim community suppose to speak out?
I’m talking more about places where not many speak out. The community have to speak out since the government isn’t as knowledgeable. If anything I would have to agree with you. The community has been trying and it is working slowly.
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Professional G
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#82
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#82
(Original post by busquets)
Well it's clear you don't even know the problem. Educate yourself first.

They are radicals, they follow ideologies like Salafism and Wahhabism which is funded heavily by Saudi Arabia, the country we do business with.

Furthermore, terrorism as a whole is not a massive deal. There. I said it. Al-Qaeda are gone, ISIS is soon gone and the attacks now are lone wolf attacks that kill very few if any.

The problem is complicated, it's not simply a matter of religion. You trying to divert it and brutalise the muslim community for trying to disassociate themselves from terrorists and murderers is disgusting and pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I find it also funny how someone who glorifies "roadmen", who actually go around stabbing people because of their postcode, is saying all this. Why dont you solve the issues within your own community first.
busquets Your first post
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username4242832
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#83
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#83
Hahaha ****ing hell
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paul514
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Rainfall)
nah if they believe in god and the prophet then they’re Muslim but we’re just saying that theyre just commuting murder which is obviously one of the worst sins. idk what you’re “hearing a looooot”
The book also permits those killings
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paul514
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Professional G)
Banning the burka would do no good. Instead it will cause tensions to rise and will increase the number of radicalised Muslims while proving that Islam isn’t accepted in the west
The burqa isn’t part of Islam
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paul514
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Rainfall)
Here we go again. We give charity to everyone. Non musljms and Muslims. In Ramadan, we do focus a little more on Muslim countries but doesnt mean we dont care about everyone else. Everyone is God’s creation and they’re equal
Not equal according to the Quran
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paul514
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Rainfall)
A few? Lol. And not even just middle eastern countries 😂

It’s literally haram. It’s unacceptable to murder who cares about others point of view
Except it’s not there is literally over 100 verses in the Quran that says it ok to do harm to none believers
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paul514
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#88
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#88
(Original post by RJomana)
Their ideology is not being denied,all of the muslim community know of the disgusting acts they commit in the name of "Islam",when if they were questioned regarding the fundamental acts of faith they would not know.Frankly they have no ideology to follow,the people they have horrifically murdered cowardly is not what Islam had taught,no innocent should have been killed in these gruesome acts and yet they are which immediately takes them out of the fold of Islam as killing a person unjustly is major sin.if anyone should be blamed it should be these people who give a bad name to Islam because of their sickening mentality who think its OK to go around ramming into people who go about their normal lives.There is simply no reason to commit any action like this.

The community does not need to accept that Islam is a "warped" religion because it is not.It is the people who are "warped" who have not been taught any better regarding their religion.I work in an Islamic school,I sit in on their Islamic lessons,and coming form a non-islamic background the things these boys are taught are simply amazing:they are taught to follow the path of their Prophet Muhammad who is the best of examples an honest,peaceful man who would have condemned these acts had he been alive today simply because what these people do is simply not from the character of a true Muslim.Sure you may call them a "Muslim" but only doing what is obligatory does not make a person a true believer and thus it can be safely assumed that these people are not true muslims.

I have been to many open days to different mosques,and during the weekends I regularly attend talks at the local mosque designed to improve the character of adults.I have been to a talk held specifically around terrorism and how the Islamic schools,mosques are all trying to steer people back to the correct way,they teach the teens that this is not what Islam teaches,at all the talks I have attended at different mosques all the preachers have strongly condemned these attacks .

The two schools that I have worked with in the past have held open inter-faith days,fundraisers open to all the community,donate extensively to "Save the Children","Samaritans",hold coffee mornings,so in my opinion the muslim community does do enough it is people like us who are scared of them and have an "us and you" attitude.

From my experience I have found them to be genuine and good people who feel their image has been ruined ever since the recent attacks,in fact I have seen a group of Imams crying because they feel shunned by the non-muslim community who feel they are the source of all evil in the world.
I stopped reading this half way through, they are following the Quran, literally without interpreting it for a modern setting as it is the perfect word of god.

I’m going to stop reading through the old posts before I found this thread now as I’m repeating myself over and over
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QE2
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Rainfall)
Literally no one ever denies that lmaooo😭
So you don't deny that ISIS use a literalist and unmodernised interpretation of the Quran and sunnah as motivation and justification for their actions?

Finally, we're getting somewhere.
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QE2
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#90
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#90
(Original post by Rainfall)
They’re muslims but theyre bad Muslims that’s all we’re saying. lets be honest here, it’s always everyone else that brings that up and not Muslims. but whatever
What do you mean by "bad Muslim"?

If a Muslim claims that keeping slaves and using female captives for sex is morally acceptable and justifiable, and another claims that it is not - which is the "bad Muslim"?
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RogerOxon
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#91
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#91
(Original post by Rainfall)
They’re muslims but theyre bad Muslims that’s all we’re saying. lets be honest here, it’s always everyone else that brings that up and not Muslims. but whatever
No. There's plenty in the Quran (and other holy books) for the mentally ill to latch onto. Religious 'thinking' is warped - it's based more on indoctrination than logic.
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QE2
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#92
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#92
(Original post by Rainfall)
nah if they believe in god and the prophet then they’re Muslim but we’re just saying that theyre just commuting murder which is obviously one of the worst sins. idk what you’re “hearing a looooot”
But the Islamic definition of "murder" is somewhat different to the current one.

The Quran and sunnah specifically and explicitly allow and even commands killings that would be called "murder" today. Muhammad himself authorised and supervised the execution of hundreds of defenceless prisoners. Not only would he be guilty of "murder" today, but it would be a "war crime". Do you think that Muhammad is in jahannam for the major sin of mass murder? Of course you don't. You will argue that those killings were justified in an Islamic context.
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QE2
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Rainfall)
Here we go again. We give charity to everyone.
Zakat isn't charity. It's a tax. Only voluntary donations can count as charity.

Everyone is God’s creation and they’re equal
Meaningless platitude. With all due respect, you should read your Quran and sunnah. Not only are "men created a degree above women", and women are "deficient in intellect and religion", but disbelievers are "the vilest of creatures".

If Muslims and non-Muslims really are equal in Islam, why is it a greater sin to kill a Muslim, and why can non-Muslims escape punishments (including death) by converting.
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MrDystopia
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#94
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#94
Never seen people deny that Islamic extremism is a thing. They may play down how much of an influence the religion has on the motive of the attack, but I have never seen someone say it doesn't exist.
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QE2
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#95
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#95
(Original post by RJomana)
Their ideology is not being denied,all of the muslim community know of the disgusting acts they commit in the name of "Islam",when if they were questioned regarding the fundamental acts of faith they would not know.Frankly they have no ideology to follow,the people they have horrifically murdered cowardly is not what Islam had taught,
This position is not only ironic but quite common. It is more often the modern, western moderate Muslim who is unaware of the true nature and content of Islamic ideology and scripture.

no innocent should have been killed in these gruesome acts
Unfortunately, the Islamic definition of "innocent" is not the same as the modern, liberal one. The Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir are quite clear that anyone who actively refuses to submit to Islam is not "innocent". Verses 5:32-33 in the Quran state this, and it is clarified in the sunnah and tafsir. This link should help https://quranx.com/Tafsirs/5.33
As far as ISIS are concerned, Muslims who oppose their implementation of a strict literalist, retentionist Islam is munafiq and therefore "not innocent".

and yet they are which immediately takes them out of the fold of Islam as killing a person unjustly is major sin.
Killing a non-Muslim is not an act of kufr and does not "take them out of the fold of Islam".

I work in an Islamic school,I sit in on their Islamic lessons,and coming form a non-islamic background the things these boys are taught are simply amazing:they are taught to follow the path of their Prophet Muhammad who is the best of examples an honest,peaceful man who would have condemned these acts had he been alive today
It is obvious that what was taught in that school is a sanitised and cherry-picked version of Islam.
Muhammad was a man of his time and position. A religious leader and warlord who could be brutally intolerant, who executed prisoners, tortured people to death and married and had sex with a 9-year-old girl. This idea of an honest, peaceful, morally admirable man is not even supported by authentic, near-contemporary Islamic histories.

I have been to many open days to different mosques,and during the weekends I regularly attend talks at the local mosque designed to improve the character of adults.I have been to a talk held specifically around terrorism and how the Islamic schools,mosques are all trying to steer people back to the correct way,they teach the teens that this is not what Islam teaches,at all the talks I have attended at different mosques all the preachers have strongly condemned these attacks .
"The behaviour of Muslims" and "The content of Islamic Ideology" are two often different things.
My usual example is slavery and using female captives for sex. I think we can both agree that these things are barbaric and impossible to condone or justify under any context. Most Muslims would condemn such actions. However, the Quran and sunnah explicitly allow both. So, we have the conflict between civilised behaviour and Islam.

so in my opinion the muslim community does do enough it is people like us who are scared of them and have an "us and you" attitude.
Yet at the same time those same Muslims will claim that the Quran is perfect and immutable and Muhammad is the perfect role model for all humanity - and both explicitly promote an "us and you" attitude.

have seen a group of Imams crying because they feel shunned by the non-muslim community who feel they are the source of all evil in the world.
I would be interested to know if these imams condemn the passages in the Quran and sunnah that explicitly permit Muslims to use their female captives for sex. Or if they condemn Muhammad's actions when he tortured people to death. Or if they condemn the verse in the Quran that allows a husband to beat a disobedient wife (under certain circumstances). I suspect that they do not. In which case, they deserve to be shunned.
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QE2
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#96
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#96
(Original post by busquets)
Well it's clear you don't even know the problem. Educate yourself first.
They are radicals, they follow ideologies like Salafism and Wahhabism
Those are both Islamic ideologies that are concerned with returning to a literalist interpretation of the Quran that has not been adapted to suit modern society. They reject the "but things were different then" arguments of moderates. They insist that when Allah or Muhammad say something, that is it. No historical or cultural relativism - which is pretty much what the Quran and sunnah say.
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QE2
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#97
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(Original post by Wooord)
It’s not an equal “split”. An overwhelming amount of Muslims condemn terrorism.
But they won't condemn the passages from the Quran and sunnah that allow violence and intolerance, and that groups like ISIS use to justify their actions.
Why do you think that ISIS use crucifixion as a punishment? Why do you think they use female captives for sex? Why do you think they throw homosexuals from "high places"? Why do you think they behead prisoners and post videos of it online? It's not coincidence you know.
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QE2
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#98
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(Original post by RJomana)
well if a person is going around killing people I wouldnt call them a true muslim eitehr
You don't think Muhammad was a "true Muslim" then?
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Randyyy
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#99
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It's just that so many muslims nowadays believe in forcing you to believe what they do, a significant amount even want to get to the stage where people in the uk for example are stoned for promiscuity (they want sharia law)

Just lead by example and try to force anything down anyone else's throat, especially not if you've come from the middle east to enjoy the freedoms of the west.

For example over half the muslims in UK (according to the ICM) believe gay marriagr should be illigal. Wtf you have no logical argument as to why this should be the case, only one that's heavily influenced by religion and guess what, the West is pretty darn secular.

Throwback to the ottoman empire where jews, muslims, and christians were living together in Jerusalem.

Ps im a muslim
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QE2
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#100
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(Original post by Randyyy)
It's just that so many muslims nowadays believe in forcing you to believe what they do, a significant amount even want to get to the stage where people in the uk for example are stoned for promiscuity (they want sharia law)
If you read the Quran and sunnah, you'll see that using the threat of violence to persuade people to submit to Islam is an integral part of the religion.

For example over half the muslims in UK (according to the ICM) believe gay marriagr should be illigal. Wtf you have no logical argument as to why this should be the case, only one that's heavily influenced by religion and guess what, the West is pretty darn secular.
The thing is, according to Islam, it is irrelevant what people think, only what Allah and Muhammad say. Islam isn't a religion of democratic consensus, it is a religion of infallible divine command.

Which gets us to to point of this thread, sort of. The Islamist fundamentalists aren't "bad Muslims" or "twisting Islam" or whatever - they are merely following Islam to the letter, without making any concessions to centuries of progress and enlightenment. If Muhammad suddenly reappeared on earth, he would recognise the Islam practiced in the Islamic State over the Islam promoted by the Muslim Council of Britain. He would feel ideologically more at home in Raqqa than in Rochdale.
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