Why the Tory party is doomed Watch

Davij038
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Why the Tory party is doomed


1: It’s designed to fail.

The party has always been the party of the established order. That may have been a good thing for most of its history, where the institutions were clearly aligned with conservative values, such as the monarchy and the church but now these institutions are run by the left or technocrats. The aspirations of the more right wing members is to make Britain more in keeping with the 80s say, which leads us to where we are today.



If you were trying to make a cake and were given a recipe, followed it to the letter and came back with a pile of stinking mess- there’s something wrong with the recipe.

2: it does not examine the cause of societal problems. As per above it may stamp down on drug dealers, but it does nothing to combat the billionaire donor class lobbying for it. The same for mass immigration and other societal ills. Most of this is undeniably caused by the neoliberal hegemony- which the Tory party bend over backwards to assist.

This may have worked in the past where great industrialists who were genuinely patriotic, but now this benefits people like Mark Zuckerberg who want to police the internet and Starbucks which has a radical far left agenda- and more than enough money to advance their causes.
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ByEeek
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Nah - none of that. They are doomed simply because they have been in power for over 10 years now. The problem is that there is no natural successor. Next year is going to be a nightmare. The news rooms are licking their lips at the prospect of grounded flights, 50 mile lorry queues on the M20 and wildly fluctuating stock markets when everyone wakes up on the morning of Brexit and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps it might only be a short term thing but it is going to bring about a leadership change to the Tory party and then a general election. And the big question - what is the current alternative to the Tories, because it isn't the Labour party.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Nah - none of that. They are doomed simply because they have been in power for over 10 years now. The problem is that there is no natural successor. Next year is going to be a nightmare. The news rooms are licking their lips at the prospect of grounded flights, 50 mile lorry queues on the M20 and wildly fluctuating stock markets when everyone wakes up on the morning of Brexit and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps it might only be a short term thing but it is going to bring about a leadership change to the Tory party and then a general election. And the big question - what is the current alternative to the Tories, because it isn't the Labour party.
Nope. This trend is true of the centre right parties across Europe, see recent elections in Sweden, Italy etc where they have been in opposition and still lost votes,

This coupled with a rapid decline in membership shows that the current way if doing politics is untenable
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fallen_acorns
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I hope they are doomed - and I hope they take the labour party down with them!

Our party-political system needs to die, badly.

Not that party politics are a problem, I would say that are a good way of running a country - but because the alignment of parties and the people has shifted so much over the past 30 years, that now both main parties are out of line with the public, and even with their voting base.

The conservatives contain: New labor free-market types.. Thatcher.. religious-traditionalists.. nationalists..libertarians etc.. all under one roof.
Labour contain: the metropolitan elite, the media elite.. open border types.. comunists/marxists.. nationalist working class.. unionists.. new labour free-market types.. etc.

They have both grown far to large and bloated, and become an absolute mess of ideologies, as they try and stretch themselves over an ever more varied politicla landscapes. What you are left with is simple:

Both parties now, are not parties of ideology. Both parties are parties whose sole purpose is gaining and maintaining power.

Tear them all down. Create new, smaller parties.

Have a propper conservative party - that actually believes in the principle of 'conserving' I.e. resisting change, focusing on whats good already, being skeptical of progress etc. keeping strong to traditions

Have an economic free market party
Have a hard-left marxist party
Have a working class nationlist party
Have an open boarders multicultural party
etc. etc.

We need fragmentation badly - so that our politics goes back to actually representing our people.

The best thing! We can do this.. within our life time! go to PR, or another proportional system, and it will happen within the next few elections! as soon as small parties actually have a chance at getting into parliament with a reasonable number of votes - small parties will form and grow organically, to represent those who want to vote for them!

The problem is, without revolution or disaster of some kind, how can this happen?

When your entire goverment is made up of people who profit from the current electoral system, how will it ever change? You would need MPs to support changing to a system that hurts them personally.. it will never happen. So we are stuck with two zombie parties, both bloated, both a mess of ideologies, and both just fighting for power alone.. completely lost to what they actually stood for originally. They are now no better then people with signs saying 'I''s say anything if you vote for me!!!'
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Davij038
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fallen_acorns

+1

This is one of the reasons why, despite being on the supposed ‘far right’ I’m probably going to vote Corbyn as he looks to be the candidate that is going to do the most damage to institutionalised power and hopefully create a dialectic which will be something like Le Pens National Front, which will bring in institutional change for the actual benefit of the country- not insane far left types thst wantvyo destroy everything decent.,
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Arran90
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My mother has been saying for a long time that both Labour and the Conservatives are too broad churches for their own good. Looking back to 1970, the
principles, position, and policies of both parties have fluttered about like a piece of litter in the wind depending on who was at the helm.

Both parties are currently racked with infighting where the parliamentary party, the leader, the rank and file membership, and the support bases views do not align with each other.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Nah - none of that. They are doomed simply because they have been in power for over 10 years now. The problem is that there is no natural successor. Next year is going to be a nightmare. The news rooms are licking their lips at the prospect of grounded flights, 50 mile lorry queues on the M20 and wildly fluctuating stock markets when everyone wakes up on the morning of Brexit and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps it might only be a short term thing but it is going to bring about a leadership change to the Tory party and then a general election. And the big question - what is the current alternative to the Tories, because it isn't the Labour party.
But that's the problem with our hysterical media: that panicking,screaming, doom-laden scaremongering. It helps no-one.

The alternative certainly isn't the party formerly known as Labour before entryists did their thang. I'm romantic enough to hope a new centrist party emerge, but (a) we don't seem to do centre ground any longer, (b) there probably isn't time, (c) our electoral system isn't geared up for that sort of thing and (d) look what happened to the SDP.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Davij038)
Nope. This trend is true of the centre right parties across Europe, see recent elections in Sweden, Italy etc where they have been in opposition and still lost votes,

This coupled with a rapid decline in membership shows that the current way if doing politics is untenable
True. But in Europe, the ground swell of populism has come from the right of politics. In our country, this manifested itself in UKIP. The problem with UKIP is that it won what it was fighting for an had nothing left. We are therefore left with a mainstream right-wing party divided and in-fighting, a very much left wing Labour party full of division and damaging accusations of antisemitism and not a lot else. British politics has always been fought in the centre. Immigration / Brexit are issues that span the political divide. I don't think it is a case of current way of politics being untenable, I just think we are in a situation where there isn't really any choice for the voter. You can choose for a Brexit Tory party of Brexit Labour party. And if you are in the 48% of people who see Brexit for what it really is, there is nothing.
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VMD100
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They seem to be less doomed than the Labour party, which is saying something. The fact a party out of the public spotlight can manage to get embroiled in a leadership crisis fathoms belief

What really isn't being taken into account is the north and rural areas - they don't feel represented by Europe or Labour anymore because they do nothing to benefit them.
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Smack
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I don't think the Conservative Party has been about (1) for a while now... just not that many votes in it anymore. My impression is that they are more aiming themselves at the "aspirational" types, the free-market economy types; although certainly, like any political party they are a broad church.

I think a bigger potential threat to the Tories is: how do they get more young people to become Conservative? In the 80s they realised that if people could own their own home, they'd generally vote Tory, perhaps because with their own property they felt they had more of a stake in things. But now, lots of young people - even those who are doing the right things - won't own their own homes. To a lot of these people, Corbyn's policies, including rent caps, seem more appealing.

Then there are older voters. We're an ageing society, and heath and social care for the elderly is likely to continue cost us more and more in the future. How well are the Tories going to handle the extra strain this puts on our public services? Will many of these voters be more attracted to Labour's policies?
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Davij038
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(Original post by Smack)
I don't think the Conservative Party has been about (1) for a while now... just not that many votes in it anymore. My impression is that they are more aiming themselves at the "aspirational" types, the free-market economy types; although certainly, like any political party they are a broad church.

I think a bigger potential threat to the Tories is: how do they get more young people to become Conservative? In the 80s they realised that if people could own their own home, they'd generally vote Tory, perhaps because with their own property they felt they had more of a stake in things. But now, lots of young people - even those who are doing the right things - won't own their own homes. To a lot of these people, Corbyn's policies, including rent caps, seem more appealing.

Then there are older voters. We're an ageing society, and heath and social care for the elderly is likely to continue cost us more and more in the future. How well are the Tories going to handle the extra strain this puts on our public services? Will many of these voters be more attracted to Labour's policies?
1st point. I don’t think you read my post correctly, as I’ve said they are not concerned with traditional values but at most going back to the 80s which is I suppose the yuppie era of ‘aspiration’ . This is not a good thing.

As for younger people, Cynically they can afford to take that risk. Cameron had essentially created with the triple lock and other perks socialism for the old- which guarantees the grey vote.

in my view the answer to both your questions is combineing social conservatism with socialism.

For instance both parties agree that the best way to look after our old is to import the third world to care for them.

Instead we should restrict the supply of foreign labour, pay our young people a decent wage to look after our old people and so they have enough to buy a house and raise a family- and end the social policies which attack the family.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)
True. But in Europe, the ground swell of populism has come from the right of politics. In our country, this manifested itself in UKIP. The problem with UKIP is that it won what it was fighting for an had nothing left. We are therefore left with a mainstream right-wing party divided and in-fighting, a very much left wing Labour party full of division and damaging accusations of antisemitism and not a lot else. British politics has always been fought in the centre. Immigration / Brexit are issues that span the political divide. I don't think it is a case of current way of politics being untenable, I just think we are in a situation where there isn't really any choice for the voter. You can choose for a Brexit Tory party of Brexit Labour party. And if you are in the 48% of people who see Brexit for what it really is, there is nothing.
1: we haven’t had brexit yet. May had hood winked a lot of people with her policy advisor nick Timothy into thinking she understood what brexit was about (including me sadly) . And she has massively let them down. If may or Someone like her leads the Tory party next, expect a resurgent ukip.

2: British politics has always been fought in the centre? What about Attlee or Thatcher? I think that institutions have evolved or were created to shape political power In a certain way. Free democracies always naturally turn to fascism which is the embodiment of what people actually want.

3: The 48% can vote for the vast majority of MPs who voted for Remain, want to stop brexir and other than some minor differences in economic policy and more or less believe in the same things other than a few ‘radicals’
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by Davij038)
fallen_acorns

+1

This is one of the reasons why, despite being on the supposed ‘far right’ I’m probably going to vote Corbyn as he looks to be the candidate that is going to do the most damage to institutionalised power and hopefully create a dialectic which will be something like Le Pens National Front, which will bring in institutional change for the actual benefit of the country- not insane far left types thst wantvyo destroy everything decent.,
that is interesting. I hadn't actually considered that a vote for corbyn may actually be the best step forward for those like me who just dislike the electoral/current political system in general.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Reality Check)
But that's the problem with our hysterical media: that panicking,screaming, doom-laden scaremongering. It helps no-one.

The alternative certainly isn't the party formerly known as Labour before entryists did their thang. I'm romantic enough to hope a new centrist party emerge, but (a) we don't seem to do centre ground any longer, (b) there probably isn't time, (c) our electoral system isn't geared up for that sort of thing and (d) look what happened to the SDP.
By centre do you mean extreme neoliberal economic policies, aggressive interventionist foreign policy, mass immigration, greater restrictions on civil liberties, crony corporatism, mild wealth redistribution and deeply unpopular leaders such as Osborne, Blair, Clegg, Macron, Merkel et al?
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Davij038
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
that is interesting. I hadn't actually considered that a vote for corbyn may actually be the best step forward for those like me who just dislike the electoral/current political system in general.
They’re attacking him for a reason. Vested interests.

All the Dumb left wing stuff he believes in (social policy) he happens to have the same views on as Theresa May- the difference is he actually has some popular opinions, eg mass be we shouldn’t go to war with Russia, maybe we should examine our ‘friendship’ with Israel and the Saudis etc.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by Smack)
I don't think the Conservative Party has been about (1) for a while now... just not that many votes in it anymore. My impression is that they are more aiming themselves at the "aspirational" types, the free-market economy types; although certainly, like any political party they are a broad church.

I think a bigger potential threat to the Tories is: how do they get more young people to become Conservative? In the 80s they realised that if people could own their own home, they'd generally vote Tory, perhaps because with their own property they felt they had more of a stake in things. But now, lots of young people - even those who are doing the right things - won't own their own homes. To a lot of these people, Corbyn's policies, including rent caps, seem more appealing.

Then there are older voters. We're an ageing society, and heath and social care for the elderly is likely to continue cost us more and more in the future. How well are the Tories going to handle the extra strain this puts on our public services? Will many of these voters be more attracted to Labour's policies?
Agree with all of this. The Tories have always appealed to Mondeo Man but Mondeo Man doesn't believe that the Tories are on his side any longer. He's hardly going to vote for Entryist Labour, so where does he go?
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Smack
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(Original post by Davij038)
1st point. I don’t think you read my post correctly, as I’ve said they are not concerned with traditional values but at most going back to the 80s which is I suppose the yuppie era of ‘aspiration’ .
Yes you're right, sorry.

Instead we should restrict the supply of foreign labour, pay our young people a decent wage to look after our old people and so they have enough to buy a house and raise a family- and end the social policies which attack the family.
Is that affordable, though? I mean, we really can't have old people who need care being left on their own or without adequate care. But at the same time, I'm not really sure where the money is going to come from to pay for the costs of care that we might need in the future, and allowing foreign labour in seems to be one of the ways to keep costs down.

(Original post by Reality Check)
Agree with all of this. The Tories have always appealed to Mondeo Man but Mondeo Man doesn't believe that the Tories are on his side any longer. He's hardly going to vote for Entryist Labour, so where does he go?
Probably whichever of the main two parties scares him or her the least so they can stop the other one from getting in, hence why in the last election their combined vote was so high. I don't see anything to suggest that a new party might emerge to sweep up these votes (or Remain votes, or really the votes of anyone else who doesn't feel that represented by either of the main two parties).
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Reality Check)
(d) look what happened to the SDP.
Two things happened to the SDP; General Leopoldo Galtieri and Dr David Owen.

The former stopped the initial expansion of the SDP. The invasion of the Falklands took place one week after Roy Jenkins won the Hillhead by-election. Owen's overweening ambition ultimately destroyed the SDP.
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Davij038
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Who said anything about abandoning them? We need to greatly increase funding for it, to attract our young people to do it. This could be funded by scrapping the ancient relic known as Trident, or/ and by stop funding foreign aid. Or a plethora of other costly virtue signals that don’t benefit us in any real way.

Bringing in foreign labour is like Like borrowing money, but with greater social costs. What people who advocate for this don’t realise or don’t care about (or conspiratorially, advocate for) is that these people will also get old, have children etc and this creates more demand and strain on public services. *

So you see it’s essentially a ponzi scheme. And that’s ignoring the far wider and deeper social costs such a policy creates.


*the only other option is to give foreign workers seasonal passes, and either pay below Minimum wage or/ and exclude from public services. But this also has a host of flaws. This is similar to the Mexican situation in the US
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Other_Owl
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Once one party abolishes the state pension, privitises everything they are unelectable for life.
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