If you want a second Brexit referendum and actually win this time

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nonotyoutoo
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How would you respond to the best of three argument?
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Andrew97
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That would be ridiculous. Why not have a best of 5? Or best of 7.
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username1221160
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I'm up for deciding the issue with pistols at dawn.
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Andrew97
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(Original post by Sulfolobus)
I'm up for deciding the issue with pistols at dawn.
Sounds fun. Although I suspect Mogg might be handy with a gun.
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username1221160
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(Original post by Andrew97)
Sounds fun. Although I suspect Mogg might be handy with a gun.
I'm sure he gets lots of practice shooting p̶e̶a̶s̶a̶n̶t̶s̶ pheasants on his estate.
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Napp
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(Original post by Sulfolobus)
I'm sure he gets lots of practice shooting p̶e̶a̶s̶a̶n̶t̶s̶ pheasants on his estate.
I might have peed a little reading that.. :lol:
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Vinny C
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Not so much want but need! Remainers were so confident of a victory that most abstained. We won't make the same mistake again!
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Vinny C
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(Original post by Andrew97)
That would be ridiculous. Why not have a best of 5? Or best of 7.
Or best of... this isn't going to be the pushover you thought it would be. That is what the Brexiteers fear! The abstainers arising.
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Vinny C
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To be honest, the EU fear Brexit more than we do. This would be an excellent opportunity to extract concessions before a second referendum. Look... we are willing to do it again but we need to sugar coat it or else. Theresa May... read the art of war. Turn disadvantage into advantage!
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Lit teacher
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It's like buying a car on EBay. The blurb says 'top of the range, no problems, full working order' so you put in a bid and win.
Then later on you actually see the car and it's nothing like what was promised. There are bits missing, it won't work and you suddenly realised that you've been the victim of a fraud. You then make a decision not to go ahead, on the basis that you were lied to, and would never have put in a bid if the advert had been truthful.

There is no 'best of 3' nonsense. Before the referendum we were promised lots of trade deals with other countries, a deal like Norway or Switzerland, where we stay in the Economic Area, £350 million a week for the NHS and a solution to the Irish border. Now we know that in March next year we will be the only country on the planet not to have a trade deal with anyone, we'll be outside the Economic area, there will be no £350 million, the Irish border question is still not resolved and businesses have already started relocating overseas. If this is still a sacrifice worth making in order to get a blue passport then why not put it to the test?
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Vinny C
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(Original post by Lit teacher)
It's like buying a car on EBay. The blurb says 'top of the range, no problems, full working order' so you put in a bid and win.
Then later on you actually see the car and it's nothing like what was promised. There are bits missing, it won't work and you suddenly realised that you've been the victim of a fraud. You then make a decision not to go ahead, on the basis that you were lied to, and would never have put in a bid if the advert had been truthful.

There is no 'best of 3' nonsense. Before the referendum we were promised lots of trade deals with other countries, a deal like Norway or Switzerland, where we stay in the Economic Area, £350 million a week for the NHS and a solution to the Irish border. Now we know that in March next year we will be the only country on the planet not to have a trade deal with anyone, we'll be outside the Economic area, there will be no £350 million, the Irish border question is still not resolved and businesses have already started relocating overseas. If this is still a sacrifice worth making in order to get a blue passport then why not put it to the test?
No... a charismatic clown and a Nazi said it was a good idea and we believed them. What worries me is that many still do!
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Day Of The Rope
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(Original post by nonotyoutoo)
How would you respond to the best of three argument?
The first was in 1975, 2 years after being taken in with no choice or vote.
The second was in 2016.

(Original post by Lit teacher)
It's like buying a car on EBay. The blurb says 'top of the range, no problems, full working order' so you put in a bid and win.
Then later on you actually see the car and it's nothing like what was promised. There are bits missing, it won't work and you suddenly realised that you've been the victim of a fraud. You then make a decision not to go ahead, on the basis that you were lied to, and would never have put in a bid if the advert had been truthful.

There is no 'best of 3' nonsense. Before the referendum we were promised lots of trade deals with other countries, a deal like Norway or Switzerland, where we stay in the Economic Area, £350 million a week for the NHS and a solution to the Irish border. Now we know that in March next year we will be the only country on the planet not to have a trade deal with anyone, we'll be outside the Economic area, there will be no £350 million, the Irish border question is still not resolved and businesses have already started relocating overseas. If this is still a sacrifice worth making in order to get a blue passport then why not put it to the test?
We already have over 60 trade deals signed and waiting to start after we leave.
Name 1 business that has relocated in full and not just a subsidiary desk.
The answer to the UK border with the EU is to do nothing. If the EU want one, let them build it and man it.
Staying in the EEC isn't leaving the EU and creates more problems with immigration.
We pay more than £350m into the EU when you take into account: fees, bailout mechanism, EU overspending, EU loans, migrant costs, matched spending.

Happy to help.
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Lit teacher
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(Original post by Day Of The Rope)
We already have over 60 trade deals signed and waiting to start after we leave.
Really? I can't find any record of these. Can you provide a link?
(Original post by Day Of The Rope)
Name 1 business that has relocated in full and not just a subsidiary desk.
Where have you got 'relocated in full' from? Just a few examples: Panasonic will be moving its European HQ from London to Amsterdam, SIG have moved its accounting division to mainland Europe, 'Big Bloomer' have entirely relocated to Ireland, Citigroup have moved 250 banking jobs to Frankfurt, HSBC are moving seven offices to Paris, Admiral Insurance is moving its European head office to Madrid and its broking business to Seville, Barclays are moving jobs to Dublin and Frankfurt, Morgan Stanley are moving 500 jobs from London to mainland Europe, AIG is moving all its European business to luxembourg... Get the picture? And that's not even touching on the thousands of jobs lost by the fall in value of the pound and the drop in growth to bottom place in the G20 which happened after the referendum.
(Original post by Day Of The Rope)
The answer to the UK border with the EU is to do nothing. If the EU want one, let them build it and man it.
I suspect you are referring to the border with Ireland. It's not the EU who want a border, and it's definitely not the people or government of Ireland, who have promised to veto any deal that involves border checks. The call for a hard border comes solely from the extremists in the Tory right and UKIP, who insist on border checks but still haven't said how they will happen, other than a magical system of remote cameras which hasn't been invented yet. Without a hard border, the UK has an open door policy exactly the same as exists now, and so all those who wanted immigration controls have been betrayed.
(Original post by Day Of The Rope)
We pay more than £350m into the EU when you take into account: fees, bailout mechanism, EU overspending, EU loans, migrant costs, matched spending.
Eh? You do know about the rebate don't you? And the development funds and CAP support for our farmers, that the government have promised to continue. Boris's bus was a lie, as he was told at the time. I have hard no announcement by the government of any increase in NHS spending after March 2019.

To summarise: I can see no trace of 60 trade deals waiting to be signed in March, thousands of UK jobs have moved overseas, there is still no viable solution to the Irish border crisis and with the devaluation of the pound the UK economy has lost more money than we will ever save. The government will still need to honour its bills to the EU, and replace the lost EU funding for CAP, so the promise of extra NHS funding was an out and out lie.

And we haven't even left the EU yet.
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username2923348
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(Original post by Lit teacher)
Really? I can't find any record of these. Can you provide a link?

Where have you got 'relocated in full' from? Just a few examples: Panasonic will be moving its European HQ from London to Amsterdam, SIG have moved its accounting division to mainland Europe, 'Big Bloomer' have entirely relocated to Ireland, Citigroup have moved 250 banking jobs to Frankfurt, HSBC are moving seven offices to Paris, Admiral Insurance is moving its European head office to Madrid and its broking business to Seville, Barclays are moving jobs to Dublin and Frankfurt, Morgan Stanley are moving 500 jobs from London to mainland Europe, AIG is moving all its European business to luxembourg... Get the picture? And that's not even touching on the thousands of jobs lost by the fall in value of the pound and the drop in growth to bottom place in the G20 which happened after the referendum.
I suspect you are referring to the border with Ireland. It's not the EU who want a border, and it's definitely not the people or government of Ireland, who have promised to veto any deal that involves border checks. The call for a hard border comes solely from the extremists in the Tory right and UKIP, who insist on border checks but still haven't said how they will happen, other than a magical system of remote cameras which hasn't been invented yet. Without a hard border, the UK has an open door policy exactly the same as exists now, and so all those who wanted immigration controls have been betrayed.

Eh? You do know about the rebate don't you? And the development funds and CAP support for our farmers, that the government have promised to continue. Boris's bus was a lie, as he was told at the time. I have hard no announcement by the government of any increase in NHS spending after March 2019.

To summarise: I can see no trace of 60 trade deals waiting to be signed in March, thousands of UK jobs have moved overseas, there is still no viable solution to the Irish border crisis and with the devaluation of the pound the UK economy has lost more money than we will ever save. The government will still need to honour its bills to the EU, and replace the lost EU funding for CAP, so the promise of extra NHS funding was an out and out lie.

And we haven't even left the EU yet.
1. They have been overzealous, however there was a list released by the Tories of countries which showed interest in post-brexit trade deals.

2. The fall in value of the pound was greatly overstated, since Brexit was voted, the pound has only fallen 5% vs the dollar, and 12% vs the euro. And this can be attributed to a rising US GDP and rising overall EU GDP. Also, please show sources for all this information you have cited, my family work in banking and I can assure, the main reason companies are outsourcing because of rising costs of London, not because of Brexit, companies have been outsourcing for years, people are using it now as a reason to attack Brexit.

3. The whole Irish border argument is a load of nonsense from both sides. It is a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. Odds are nothing will change and it will continue to be a semi-open border. However, I am no expert so I cannot comment on this.

4. All the projects and that the EU has funded, the UK could've afforded anyway, the EU funding just helps soak up some of the cost. The EU funding is greatly over-exaggerated in terms of usefulness. And you missed a key point WHEN WE LEAVE THE EU. You broke your own argument, we haven't left yet, how can we have money from an event which hasn't happened yet. And also, don't be so naive. It wasn't a government mandated promise, it was a statement from a third party political campaign, and only one or two people said "WE WILL" the main words used were, "WE COULD" people seem to forget that.
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Joleee
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i'm Canadian. tbh after you voted 'leave' i saved thousands of Canadian dollars in tuition. true story.

the referendum was irresponsible government as people didn't know, didn't understand what they were voting for. most people don't know what the EU does and didn't know how many laws would need to be re-written, didn't know how many negotiations would be required. pretty sure a lot of people thought voting 'leave' meant it could be over with in one day. yeah, we need a second referendum so people can take ownership and responsibility for the final outcome, rather than blaming the government for a bad deal.
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Lit teacher
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(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
1. They have been overzealous, however there was a list released by the Tories of countries which showed interest in post-brexit trade deals.
So as I said, the UK will be the only country on the planet to not have a favourable trade deal with a single other country. We also have no experience of negotiating deals. Trade deals commonly take 8 - 10 years to conclude.
(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
2. The fall in value of the pound was greatly overstated, since Brexit was voted, the pound has only fallen 5% vs the dollar, and 12% vs the euro.
Before the referendum was announced £1 was worth 1.41 Euros. Now it is worth 1.1 Euros and if we crash out without a deal it will fall even further. Put another way, the cost of buying a 1000 Euro piece of equipment from Germany went from £720 to £900. In 2017 we bought 384 billion Euros of goods and services from the EU. It cost the UK £69 billion more than it would have done if the exchange rate hadn't suddenly plummeted.

(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
Also, please show sources for all this information you have cited,
Here I have only mentioned those directly attributed to Brexit, not the companies which have collapsed because of the post referendum slow down in the UK economy.
(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
3. The whole Irish border argument is a load of nonsense from both sides.
Before the Good Friday agreement terrorism in Ireland claimed more than 3000 lives (including bomb attacks in mainland UK). A major point of the peace deal was that all border checkpoints between north and south must be dismantled. In return, the IRA destroyed its weapons.
Rees-Mogg and friends want border checkpoints. Otherwise we still have a completely free flow of people and goods into the UK. Anyone from another EU country can just fly to Ireland and get a bus into the UK. The Irish government have point blank refused to accept border controls. I'm guessing the terrorists won't be happy either. No-one has a solution.

(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
WHEN WE LEAVE THE EU. You broke your own argument, we haven't left yet... It wasn't a government mandated promise, it was a statement from a third party political campaign
The government have already said that they will honour financial commitments and replace the CAP payments. We also know that the £350 million didn't even exist in the first place because of the rebate. Therefore we know that the NHS is not going to see any increase. Not only that, it has record numbers of unfilled positions (nearly 70,000 nurses short) and there are record numbers of EU staff leaving the NHS now, while recruitment has collapsed.

It's an absolute shambles that's dragging this country further into the depths. And what will we get in return that makes all this suffering worthwhile? Blue passports.
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L i b
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(Original post by Lit teacher)
Before the referendum we were promised lots of trade deals with other countries, a deal like Norway or Switzerland, where we stay in the Economic Area, £350 million a week for the NHS and a solution to the Irish border.
The problem with this logic is, of course, that anyone can promise you anything - and indeed, in every referendum, that's what people do, even when they are terribly contradictory. It's down to the individual voter to assess the credibility of claims made, not for us to somehow silence ridiculous claims.

In the final process, there is a straightforward question on a referendum ballot paper - there is nothing beyond that. What you choose to believe to support your opinion on that question is really your own business.

Campaign organisations, individual politicians or some gobshite that you heard at Speakers' Corner are only putting across a view. The only thing that can be held to is where the votes fall.

Now we know that in March next year we will be the only country on the planet not to have a trade deal with anyone, we'll be outside the Economic area, there will be no £350 million, the Irish border question is still not resolved and businesses have already started relocating overseas. If this is still a sacrifice worth making in order to get a blue passport then why not put it to the test?
I don't think anyone seriously imagines that will be the outcome - nor indeed would you expect the new relationship with the EU to be finalised at this stage.

I'm no Brexit supporter, but ultimately it was an entirely free, open and fair referendum - and its result is binding, if not legally, then politically. That's the nature of holding such a vote. If anyone out there feels somehow duped - and I'm not entirely sure I believe that's a widespread view - then that's really their problem. Holding another vote doesn't resolve anything: they'll still as stupid and credulous as they were before, and still just as capable of being led by arguments they don't understand about political issues they only barely comprehend.
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L i b
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(Original post by Lit teacher)
Before the Good Friday agreement terrorism in Ireland claimed more than 3000 lives (including bomb attacks in mainland UK). A major point of the peace deal was that all border checkpoints between north and south must be dismantled. In return, the IRA destroyed its weapons.
Such a major part of the peace deal that it wasn't even mentioned once in the Good Friday Agreement?

Otherwise we still have a completely free flow of people and goods into the UK. Anyone from another EU country can just fly to Ireland and get a bus into the UK. The Irish government have point blank refused to accept border controls. I'm guessing the terrorists won't be happy either. No-one has a solution.
Ultimately if the Irish do not (or, rather, are not compelled to) introduce border checks, then the UK Government has said that it will not.

For my part, I think that a lot of the hype pretends that the alternative to an open border would be to have some sort of walled border with soldiers in towers and so on. That is frankly ridiculous and completely ignores the sort of light-touch borders that exist not only between countries like Norway and Sweden, or Sweden and Finland, but countries beyond Europe.

The idea that some customs control will somehow reignite violence in Ireland is, I think, pretty ridiculous. The Provisional IRA are not simply hanging around, poised to start shooting policemen at the drop of a hat. Northern Ireland is a very different place to what it was a generation ago and it has progressed far beyond that sort of thing.
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paul514
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(Original post by L i b)
Ultimately if the Irish do not (or, rather, are not compelled to) introduce border checks, then the UK Government has said that it will not.

For my part, I think that a lot of the hype pretends that the alternative to an open border would be to have some sort of walled border with soldiers in towers and so on. That is frankly ridiculous and completely ignores the sort of light-touch borders that exist not only between countries like Norway and Sweden, or Sweden and Finland, but countries beyond Europe.

The idea that some customs control will somehow reignite violence in Ireland is, I think, pretty ridiculous. The Provisional IRA are not simply hanging around, poised to start shooting policemen at the drop of a hat. Northern Ireland is a very different place to what it was a generation ago and it has progressed far beyond that sort of thing.
Or just that but the reason the IRA really gave up is they were absolutely riddled with moles.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by L i b)
The problem with this logic is, of course, that anyone can promise you anything - and indeed, in every referendum, that's what people do, even when they are terribly contradictory. It's down to the individual voter to assess the credibility of claims made, not for us to somehow silence ridiculous claims.

In the final process, there is a straightforward question on a referendum ballot paper - there is nothing beyond that. What you choose to believe to support your opinion on that question is really your own business.

Campaign organisations, individual politicians or some gobshite that you heard at Speakers' Corner are only putting across a view. The only thing that can be held to is where the votes fall.



I don't think anyone seriously imagines that will be the outcome - nor indeed would you expect the new relationship with the EU to be finalised at this stage.

I'm no Brexit supporter, but ultimately it was an entirely free, open and fair referendum - and its result is binding, if not legally, then politically. That's the nature of holding such a vote. If anyone out there feels somehow duped - and I'm not entirely sure I believe that's a widespread view - then that's really their problem. Holding another vote doesn't resolve anything: they'll still as stupid and credulous as they were before, and still just as capable of being led by arguments they don't understand about political issues they only barely comprehend.
There was a difference with the Brexit vote. That difference will be acknowledged when the dust of Brexit settles. The Brexit vote was the entry of the Big Lie into British politics. Politics has always contained "political lies"; attempts to tar the other side with false intentions or false consequences of their respective policies. The Big Lie, the assertion of the truth of a "fact" known to be false after it has been called out as false, is new to British politics* and unless stopped will destroy political discourse.

One of the things that won the 1979 election for the Conservatives was the poster "Labour isn't Working" and a long queue of jobless. Some at least in the Conservative Party would have known that their proposed policies would increase the number of jobless in the short term but they believed, rightly so, that those policies would have a beneficial effect in the medium to long term. That slogan was no different to any other political slogan of the 20th century.

But what if Labour had countered that slogan by simply denying the number of unemployed? The claimant count was inaccurate. Only a third of claimants were actually unemployed. Would the Tories have won in 1979 if their principal charges against Labour had been claimed to be factually inaccurate? No rubbish piled up in the streets; it was all staged. No dead were left unburied.

Politics in the UK has always been conducted against a background of factual truth and in the Brexit referendum that broke down.

Remain was left trying to get ts voice heard on the question of the simple arithmetic of how much would be saved from payments to the EU (irrespective of any costs of leaving).

When do you think the working papers for Osborne's emergency budget, let alone his early drafts of the speech will be deposited in the National Archives?

*The Zinoviev Letter was believed to be genuine when released
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