The Alt right and radical left are going to destroy democracy. Watch

Davij038
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/forei...overnable/amp/

TLDR: By not working with ‘extremist’ parties who are gaining in popularity, establishment politics are making governing countries impossible and are leading to a self destructive cycle.

Imagine if Ukip and the greens both started making gains- so labour and the Tories formed a grand coalition. Thst is the absurd position many in Europe face.


My thoughts

with the increasing incompetence/ corruption and arrogance of mainstream parties throughout the western world, this leads to the creation of more ‘extreme’ parties whom the establishment will not work with- EG Nationslist or Communist parties. However by refusing to work with them de facto turns them into the sole opppsition (see Germany) or makes a country potentially ungovernable (see Sweden) .

We have yet to see what happens when a mainstream party works with an ‘extremist’ party (austria) or wins (Italy)- although we do know that both are highly popular and that when an extremist party was beaten (France) the ‘moderate’ candidate Macron has become the least popular French President in its history surpassing his predecessor Hollande.
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AperfectBalance
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I mean it is pretty clear that democracy has failed somewhat, it relies to heavily on people being correct, they are often not.
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Davij038
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I mean it is pretty clear that democracy has failed somewhat, it relies to heavily on people being correct, they are often not.
I’ve long been a critic if democracy, and certainly there’s terrible elements to it. It I don’t think democracy is the main culprit here. The problem is liberal ‘democracy’ which has developed ‘checks and balances’ against the good aspects of democracy. Brazil today is what happens when these checks are finally overcome and the people finally get justice.

We need majoritarianism or popular democracy not minoritarisnism or long break democracy.
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londonmyst
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Whilst extremes of anything are usually dangerous or highly unpleasant, I think British democracy and the law are effective enough to withstand the challenges posed by the more militant aspects of popularist politics.
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Davij038
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Whilst extremes of anything are usually dangerous or highly unpleasant, I think British democracy and the law are effective enough to withstand the challenges posed by the more militant aspects of popularist politics.
Extremism is subjective.

As per brotish democracy snd the law- well, it has been designed to withstand these sorts of things but we are heading into uncharted waters, thanks mainly to brexit but also by the capture of the Labour Party by what many people think is an ‘extremist’.

The second hurdle is our voting system but even that can be overcome eg the SNP in 2015. If brexit goes south, an ‘extreme’ Labour Party gains power and the Tories give their members no real choice in the leadership election I think we could see a vacuum that UKIP could fill.
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anarchism101
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The overall trend is wider than you're indicating - we're seeing political fragmentation across the spectrum, not just from the far-left and far-right. We're also seeing the rise of new more centrist parties, as well as whatever the hell the Five Star Movement are.

(Original post by Davij038)

Imagine if Ukip and the greens both started making gains- so labour and the Tories formed a grand coalition. Thst is the absurd position many in Europe face.
Well, it's worth bearing in mind the various different political traditions and systems across Europe. Compare, for instance, Britain and Germany. We have a FPTP system which heavily encourages a 2-party system, and in which coalitions are rare, so a grand coalition seems absurd to us. In Germany, not so much. For most of West German history, there were only really three national parties - the CDU/CSU, the SPD and the FDP (essentially the German equivalents of the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems respectively). However, their PR electoral system meant that, invariably, no single party would ever have a majority, but any 2 of the 3 together would. Inevitably, that meant there were some occasions where CDU and SPD felt they had more in common than either did with the FDP, hence grand coalitions are fairly normal in Germany. Similarly, in Austria, an OVP-SPO grand coalition was in power for all but 7 years between 1986 and 2017.

My thoughts

with the increasing incompetence/ corruption and arrogance of mainstream parties throughout the western world, this leads to the creation of more ‘extreme’ parties whom the establishment will not work with- EG Nationslist or Communist parties. However by refusing to work with them de facto turns them into the sole opppsition (see Germany) or makes a country potentially ungovernable (see Sweden) .
At the moment, this really only applies to Germany and Sweden though, and maybe a little bit to Ireland with Sinn Fein. Everywhere else, there's either no significant extreme party to work with in the first place (Portugal, Belgium), no incentive to work with them because the electoral system usually guarantees a majority or near-majority for one party (UK, France), or such co-operation has already been taking place for years (Austria, Denmark, Finland).

Also, in several states, dissatisfaction with the mainstream parties has manifested not just in the rise of extreme parties, but also in the emergence of new centrist parties (En Marche in France, Ciudadanos in Spain, the Greens in Germany) or in the rise of separatist parties (see Catalonia and Scotland) That's what I mean by fragmentation across the board.

We have yet to see what happens when a mainstream party works with an ‘extremist’ party (austria)
Well, we've seen this exact same coalition in Austria before, this isn't FPO's first time in government by a long shot. Last time out it significantly benefited the OVP's popularity at the FPO's expense. Still early days, of course, but so far that's what's been happening this time too - OVP rising in polls, FPO declining.

Broadly the trend in both Austria and Italy is that the party and leader who is able to set the agenda and get more attention gains popularity at their partners' expense. In Austria, that's been Kurz, whereas in Italy it's been Salvini.

although we do know that both are highly popular and that when an extremist party was beaten (France) the ‘moderate’ candidate Macron has become the least popular French President in its history surpassing his predecessor Hollande.
From the stats I've seen Macron is still slightly more popular than Hollande was at this point. But at least since the introduction of 5-year terms, French presidents have pretty much all got very unpopular pretty quickly. But a couple of points to bear in mind with regard to Macron:
i) Macron himself presented as a populist newcomer in the presidential election, and wasn't running for either of the two major parties.
ii) Despite decline in popularity, En Marche still appear to be single most popular party in France.
iii) Macron's lost popularity has not translated over to Le Pen - quite the contrary, the FN (or the RN, as they are now) have slumped. The beneficiaries have been Les Republicains (the mainstream centre-right party) and Melenchon's France Insoumise (far-left).
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ByEeek
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Nah - it is a phase that will come and go. I think the main problem we have at present is the desire to farm out exceedingly complex problems to the population in the form of a yes / no vote that divides the nation. The US have done it with Trump. We have done it with Brexit. It is ripping both countries apart with the pro side rubbing the faces of the against side in the mud. Not exactly a recipe for harmony. Civil wars have started over less.
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Nah - it is a phase that will come and go. I think the main problem we have at present is the desire to farm out exceedingly complex problems to the population in the form of a yes / no vote that divides the nation. The US have done it with Trump. We have done it with Brexit. It is ripping both countries apart with the pro side rubbing the faces of the against side in the mud. Not exactly a recipe for harmony. Civil wars have started over less.
I laughed reading this.

Trumps election was a regular US presidential election it wasn’t a referendum.

We have chatted about referendums before so you know what I think about those anyway so no point addressing that.

As for the politics which were described as being extreme at the moment being a phase, I’m sorry but it’s not.

It’s a pattern that is repeated throughout western countries and has come about for a reason and until that reason is addressed it will continue.

I’d say the reason is not listening to the public and not being honest with them in return
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
I’d say the reason is not listening to the public and not being honest with them in return
Yeah - I'd go with that. But then what does listening to the public actually mean? Our democracy provides plenty of opportunities for the public to be listened to. Our MPs hold surgeries. You can write petitions and lobby your MPs in the Lobby of Parliament. You can write to the press or create your own campaign. You can write letters and emails. The government also hold consultations on upcoming legislation that is open to all. But at the end of the day, the government passes about 17 bills a year so if 60 million people do all of the above, most are going to feel unlistened to. And then you have blunt instruments like the referendum where half feel listened to (at least until the unintended consequences of their vote starts to kick in) and the other half feel completely humiliated by the process, which would have been reversed had the decision gone the other way.

So what does being listened to by the government actually mean?
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Yeah - I'd go with that. But then what does listening to the public actually mean? Our democracy provides plenty of opportunities for the public to be listened to. Our MPs hold surgeries. You can write petitions and lobby your MPs in the Lobby of Parliament. You can write to the press or create your own campaign. You can write letters and emails. The government also hold consultations on upcoming legislation that is open to all. But at the end of the day, the government passes about 17 bills a year so if 60 million people do all of the above, most are going to feel unlistened to. And then you have blunt instruments like the referendum where half feel listened to (at least until the unintended consequences of their vote starts to kick in) and the other half feel completely humiliated by the process, which would have been reversed had the decision gone the other way.

So what does being listened to by the government actually mean?
The political parties aren't taking what the public want seriously.

lets look at the UK...

A housing shortage of four million homes.
Crime that people are really bothered about going through the roof AND not being investigated.
Pot holes EVERYWHERE
Social care not funded anywhere near enough.
Too many migrants.
Problems with Islam.
Public services being very streached in the health service.
Free speech being clamped down.
University fees
Food bank usage
Benefits being frozen for so long, stupid tests and universal credit.

Just as a start.....

Now granted some of those take quite a bit of money to fix, some don't and there is certainly no solid plan to fix them and just look at the issues, your health, your safety, your roof, your food, your safety net, your poorest, your elderly parents.

They aren't exactly saying give us all a new bentley, these are fundemental basics that people need.
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Xiphos
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(Original post by Davij038)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/forei...overnable/amp/

TLDR: By not working with ‘extremist’ parties who are gaining in popularity, establishment politics are making governing countries impossible and are leading to a self destructive cycle.

Imagine if Ukip and the greens both started making gains- so labour and the Tories formed a grand coalition. Thst is the absurd position many in Europe face.


My thoughts

with the increasing incompetence/ corruption and arrogance of mainstream parties throughout the western world, this leads to the creation of more ‘extreme’ parties whom the establishment will not work with- EG Nationslist or Communist parties. However by refusing to work with them de facto turns them into the sole opppsition (see Germany) or makes a country potentially ungovernable (see Sweden) .

We have yet to see what happens when a mainstream party works with an ‘extremist’ party (austria) or wins (Italy)- although we do know that both are highly popular and that when an extremist party was beaten (France) the ‘moderate’ candidate Macron has become the least popular French President in its history surpassing his predecessor Hollande.
Democracy was a pipe dream of the Greeks that didn't work then and won't work now. Power will never truly be in the hands of the people and if it were to reach us we wouldn't know what to do with it.
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Davij038
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(Original post by paul514)
The political parties aren't taking what the public want seriously.

lets look at the UK...

A housing shortage of four million homes.
Crime that people are really bothered about going through the roof AND not being investigated.
Pot holes EVERYWHERE
Social care not funded anywhere near enough.
Too many migrants.
Problems with Islam.
Public services being very streached in the health service.
Free speech being clamped down.
University fees
Food bank usage
Benefits being frozen for so long, stupid tests and universal credit.

Just as a start.....

Now granted some of those take quite a bit of money to fix, some don't and there is certainly no solid plan to fix them and just look at the issues, your health, your safety, your roof, your food, your safety net, your poorest, your elderly parents.

They aren't exactly saying give us all a new bentley, these are fundemental basics that people need.
PRSOM

although i’d go further and say this is part of an agenda- eg the government and the establishment isn’t merely misguided but is actively hostile towards the population as a whole.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Yeah - I'd go with that. But then what does listening to the public actually mean? Our democracy provides plenty of opportunities for the public to be listened to. Our MPs hold surgeries. You can write petitions and lobby your MPs in the Lobby of Parliament. You can write to the press or create your own campaign. You can write letters and emails. The government also hold consultations on upcoming legislation that is open to all.
Sure,

But Joe Public doesn’t have the money or connections to make these worth a damn.
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Davij038
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(Original post by JoshuaRussell16)
Democracy was a pipe dream of the Greeks that didn't work then and won't work now. Power will never truly be in the hands of the people and if it were to reach us we wouldn't know what to do with it.
Democracy can work, but it’s a means to an end.

Ultimstely we mortals will never devise a perfect system but the problem today isn’t democracy- it’s the subversion if it by ‘special interests’
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paul514
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(Original post by Davij038)
PRSOM

although i’d go further and say this is part of an agenda- eg the government and the establishment isn’t merely misguided but is actively hostile towards the population as a whole.
Of course, that or incompetance.

They know what we think.
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Davij038
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(Original post by paul514)
Of course, that or incompetance.

They know what we think.
Incompetentence/ cluelessness. A lot of people, especially over the age of thirty find it difficult to change viewpoints or/ and habits.

I also think some people genuinely don’t give a damn. The George Osbornes of the world- they’re making a lot of money and they don’t give a **** thanks.

The people really running the show know what we think, a lot of politicians (who I think are well intentioned mostly) are not only carefully chosen and groomed for the role to be non problematic (or to be compromised somehow) don’t even have that much power anymore anyway.

i used to laugh at David Ike videos, but after watching some videos of Mark Zuckerberg I’m starting to think maybe he’s got a point 😂
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Davij038
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anarchism101

I agree with most of what you say, although I think the ‘new centrists’ are going to be a busted flush. I think we will get a far better picture during the Eu elections
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
A housing shortage of four million homes.
Crime that people are really bothered about going through the roof AND not being investigated.
Pot holes EVERYWHERE
Social care not funded anywhere near enough.
Too many migrants.
Problems with Islam.
Public services being very streached in the health service.
Free speech being clamped down.
University fees
Food bank usage
Benefits being frozen for so long, stupid tests and universal credit.
Right, but being devils advocate:
Home owners don't want house building a) because NIBY and b) they like to see the value of their house rise
People don't like crime but only if it is in their areas. And the sort of people who make a fuss are people who live in nice areas. So the rise in crime tends to be in less desirable areas and is therefore not a problem.
Pot holes are indeed everywhere but that is the fault of councils and no one wants to pay more council tax so we tolerate pot holes
There are indeed too many migrants, but at the same time, businesses are recruiting them and migrants tend to live in less desirable areas so out of sight, out of mind. Who cares about the working class anyway?
Problems with Islam? Really? That is just tabloid hearsay. I would say that half of the problems in the world right now are caused by the very Christian US.


And so on and so on. For each point you make, there are interests that oppose. So what you are saying is that you don't feel you are being listened to. And ironically although you have been listened to by the Brexit vote, I feel neglected. So how do you square that circle? Answer - you kind of can't. But one way you can make the world better for everyone is to resist this idea that massive change must happen to make things better. Massive change solves few problems as the Tories are discovering with their Universal Credit. Instead, I would like to see governments make small incremental changes that negatively impact on as few people as possible.
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Nihilisticb*tch
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I mean it is pretty clear that democracy has failed somewhat, it relies to heavily on people being correct, they are often not.
Dictatorship also relies on people or a person being correct. Democracy is the better option as it is more likely that the majority of people will be correct than one single person being correct.
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Right, but being devils advocate:
Home owners don't want house building a) because NIBY and b) they like to see the value of their house rise
People don't like crime but only if it is in their areas. And the sort of people who make a fuss are people who live in nice areas. So the rise in crime tends to be in less desirable areas and is therefore not a problem.
Pot holes are indeed everywhere but that is the fault of councils and no one wants to pay more council tax so we tolerate pot holes
There are indeed too many migrants, but at the same time, businesses are recruiting them and migrants tend to live in less desirable areas so out of sight, out of mind. Who cares about the working class anyway?
Problems with Islam? Really? That is just tabloid hearsay. I would say that half of the problems in the world right now are caused by the very Christian US.


And so on and so on. For each point you make, there are interests that oppose. So what you are saying is that you don't feel you are being listened to. And ironically although you have been listened to by the Brexit vote, I feel neglected. So how do you square that circle? Answer - you kind of can't. But one way you can make the world better for everyone is to resist this idea that massive change must happen to make things better. Massive change solves few problems as the Tories are discovering with their Universal Credit. Instead, I would like to see governments make small incremental changes that negatively impact on as few people as possible.
Once again you are incredibly wrong, look I know you are a massive centrist who doesn’t like fundamental change.
However your reasoning in reply to quite literally every point was wrong not even right slightly.

You even finished with the dumbest example using universal credit as an example of big change being bad.

Universal credit is bad because they won’t fund one month of payments twice for claimants when they switch over and because for some people it will lose money for them.
Everything else about the idea is great, all it needs is some extra funding
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