Syed Kamall: Nazis were socialists

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DrMikeHuntHertz
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Nazis are socialists, discuss...
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Violet Femme
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Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
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Davij038
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It has elements of socialism sure. For instance the Scandinavian model so admired is based off of fascist policy. Their economic model was a planned and mainly collectivist one.

There may be some modern divergences of opinion on economics - where some leading Nazis were more economically radical than that promoted.

That’s where the similarities end though. They had radically different ends. For instance the Nazis wanted to protect and act in the interest of white prople, traditional families, Christianity and defeat the communists trying to infiltrate their society.

Antifa and the liberal left want to do the complete opppsite.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by DrMikeHuntHertz)

Nazis are socialists, discuss...
That video looks a bit shouty from the get-go. I'll pass on it, thanks.
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Wōden
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
They were diametrically opposed to Marxist socialism, no doubt. But they were also staunchly anti-capitalist and had plenty of non-marxist socialist/syndicalist elements within their economic ideology, policies of nationalisation, profit sharing, welfare, state education and healthcare to name a few.

Regardless, "the Nazis did it, so it must be bad!" is such a fallacious, non-argument against socialism I see trotted out time and time again. The Nazis also introduced laws against child labour, animal cruelty and environmental destruction, so I guess those must be bad too, right? Ridiculous.
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DrMikeHuntHertz
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
If that's the case then why do you think they would have it in their name tag?
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Trinculo
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Except for the Aryan bit, you could take the 25 point manifesto from Mein Kampf and stick it on today's Labour Party and no one would bat an eyelid.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Trinculo)
Except for the Aryan bit, you could take the 25 point manifesto from Mein Kampf and stick it on today's Labour Party and no one would bat an eyelid.
Yeah Nazis were famous for their endorsement of LGBT and minority rights, mass immigration and liberal defence and foreign policy,
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JMR2021_
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(Original post by DrMikeHuntHertz)
If that's the case then why do you think they would have it in their name tag?
Why is North Korea the ‘Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’?
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DrMikeHuntHertz
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(Original post by JMR2018)
Why is North Korea the ‘Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’?
Because it's a democracy?
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
While you're not entirely wrong, your argument is invalid.

It doesn't matter who fought who. Stalin and Trocki were both communists, and they were enemies.
Do you know what Polish pre-war communist thought of Bolsheviks? They called them 'Red aristocracy'.
Do you know what Bolsheviks did with Polish non-bolshevik communists? Killed them.

The National-socialism originated from the right wing but it had several socialist elements like social handouts, and socialist economy, especially at the late WWII period.

Of caurse Kamall talked rubbish, but EP is full of people talking rubbish.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
Not so.

While post-Soviet socialists would like you to believe that the only true socialists are tree hugging peaceful types, the dominant strain of socialism across the west until the 1970's was that of a command economy and because of WW1 and WW2, it tended to have a highly nationalist strain (understandable when a foreign army on either side had probably turned your town to rubble). This redefinition has only been the case since the 90's when people no longer had a blatent regime to contrast against. Indeed, many 'socialists' are actually extreme social democrats.

...

With regards to the topic at hand i would say that yes, they were as they say on the tin National Socialists. The Nazi regime even before WW2 was highly interventionist and operated to some degree a command economy (moreso as the years went on) with a general dislike for wealth. The only point against it being socialist was that as with now, government was involved with some large businesses even if come the war they essentially just nationalised them fully.

If you read the Mein Kamf manifesto for example, there is not a trace of capitalism in there.
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BathshebaBathing
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Anyone who believes the nazis were socialists has been failed by the education system and really needs to learn some history and political philosophy. Nazism was diametrically opposed to socialism and while the moderate german conservatives were trying to work with Hitler in government (that didn't work out well for them), socialists were fighting nazi paramilitaries in the street.
I don't think you know what the word "diametrically" means
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HighOnGoofballs
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Not so.

While post-Soviet socialists would like you to believe that the only true socialists are tree hugging peaceful types, the dominant strain of socialism across the west until the 1970's was that of a command economy and because of WW1 and WW2, it tended to have a highly nationalist strain (understandable when a foreign army on either side had probably turned your town to rubble). This redefinition has only been the case since the 90's when people no longer had a blatent regime to contrast against. Indeed, many 'socialists' are actually extreme social democrats.

...

With regards to the topic at hand i would say that yes, they were as they say on the tin National Socialists. The Nazi regime even before WW2 was highly interventionist and operated to some degree a command economy (moreso as the years went on) with a general dislike for wealth. The only point against it being socialist was that as with now, government was involved with some large businesses even if come the war they essentially just nationalised them fully.

If you read the Mein Kamf manifesto for example, there is not a trace of capitalism in there.
Not saying I disagree, but I've always wondered why many rich businessmen donated large sums of money to Hitler if he was anti-capitalist? Wouldn't they have directed their wealth to, say, the Social Democrats?
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Rakas21
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(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Not saying I disagree, but I've always wondered why many rich businessmen donated large sums of money to Hitler if he was anti-capitalist? Wouldn't they have directed their wealth to, say, the Social Democrats?
Well by 1934 the Nazi's were killing their political opponents and as much as one may want another party, you have to deal with the government as it is. It's like the current argument about Saudi weapons sales with some arguing that we at least have an ear in the room by having such a relationship with them, same thing with UK overseas territories being tax havens or Luxembourg for the EU.

Standing by your principles often costs you profit.
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username4316962
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(Original post by Wōden)
They were diametrically opposed to Marxist socialism, no doubt. But they were also staunchly anti-capitalist and had plenty of non-marxist socialist/syndicalist elements within their economic ideology, policies of nationalisation, profit sharing, welfare, state education and healthcare to name a few.

Regardless, "the Nazis did it, so it must be bad!" is such a fallacious, non-argument against socialism I see trotted out time and time again. The Nazis also introduced laws against child labour, animal cruelty and environmental destruction, so I guess those must be bad too, right? Ridiculous.
anti-capitalist =/= socialist

They may not have been capitalist in the traditional sense but they certainly weren't socialist.

They were more pro-privatisation than pro-nationalisation, indeed the Nazis privatised a huge number of industries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...y#cite_note-40
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Captain Haddock
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Well by 1934 the Nazi's were killing their political opponents and as much as one may want another party, you have to deal with the government as it is. It's like the current argument about Saudi weapons sales with some arguing that we at least have an ear in the room by having such a relationship with them, same thing with UK overseas territories being tax havens or Luxembourg for the EU.

Standing by your principles often costs you profit.
And who were those political opponents? Oh, that's right. Socialists.
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Davij038
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(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Not saying I disagree, but I've always wondered why many rich businessmen donated large sums of money to Hitler if he was anti-capitalist? Wouldn't they have directed their wealth to, say, the Social Democrats?
Rich businessman will do deals with whoever, they even did deals with Lenin
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Davij038
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
And who were those political opponents? Oh, that's right. Socialists.
And conservatives and liberals and communists and of course Jews.,
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Davij038
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(Original post by BornBlue1)
anti-capitalist =/= socialist

They may not have been capitalist in the traditional sense but they certainly weren't socialist.

They were more pro-privatisation than pro-nationalisation, indeed the Nazis privatised a huge number of industries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...y#cite_note-40
That’s one hell of a stretch there. The Nazis did
indeed privatise some industries to meet their wider
objectives- so have virtually all socialist societies.
industries- at some points in time
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