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Original post by MerpDerpPotato
I'm not sure. He's part of the trinity and is the word of God.


This was a huge issue at the Council of Nicaea. The living Jesus ever claimed to be God or else his dying words make no sense. Unitarians like myself prefer to see him as inspired by and connected to God. Hope that makes sense...
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
Hm. As a Christian I see him as the word of God, God on earth as a human and one of God's ways of moving in the world (the universe was created through him). I think that's why he was able to pay for our sin and who we can connect to God through him.


Only because you have been taught the Trinitarian interpretation. I believe in the Bible as much as you but we believe good deeds are more important than bad deeds and salvation. God will judge my soul based on how I have been...
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
I do agree that doing good things is important and part of believing in Jesus is doing that. We can't save ourselves though.


Quite... salvation must be earned... it is not granted just because you said a few prayers and have been baptised.
I think you are confusing salvation with fellowship. We are all guilty before God because we have fallen short of His standard of perfection so we cannot qualify for Heaven with our own works (so we deserve Hell). Therefore, because of God’s great love for us He sent His Son, God in the flesh, to live a prefect life (He was the only sinless person ever) and die a horrible death on the cross. With the blood He shed on the cross, He paid for all the sins of humanity. He was then buried and bodily rose from the dead the 3rd day. So as our sins were imputed onto Him, His righteousness is freely imputed onto us for free when we believe these things and trust on Him alone for salvation. In this way, God sees His son’s perfect righetousness when He looks at us and not our own filthy righteousness so we are counted worthy for Heaven even though we are not. Our works amd efforts do not contribute to our salavtion. After we are saved, we then should strive to live according to Jesus’ commandments and we have the Holy Spirit inside of us to guide us to do so. We will of course fail daily to reach that perfection because our flesh remains dead but we should strive nonetheless. These efforts are not part of salvation however, salavtion is by grace alone through faith alone. In other words, we serve God because we love Him for saving us and not because we fear He may condemn us to Hell.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by andreasz
I think you are confusing salvation with fellowship. We are all guilty before God because we have fallen short of His standard of perfection so we cannot qualify for Heaven with our own works (so we deserve Hell). Therefore, because of God’s great love for us He sent His Son, God in the flesh, to live a prefect life (He was the only sinless person ever) and die a horrible death on the cross. With the blood He shed on the cross, He paid for all the sins of humanity. He was then buried and bodily rose from the dead the 3rd day. So as our sins were imputed onto Him, His righteousness is freely imputed onto us for free when we believe these things and trust on Him alone for salvation. In this way, God sees His son’s perfect righetousness when He looks at us and not our own filthy righteousness so we are counted worthy for Heaven even though we are not. Our works amd efforts do not contribute to our salavtion. After we are saved, we then should strive to live according to Jesus’ commandments and we have the Holy Spirit inside of us to guide us to do so. We will of course fail daily to reach that perfection because our flesh remains dead but we should strive nonetheless. These efforts are not part of salvation however, salavtion is by grace alone through faith alone. In other words, we serve God because we love Him for saving us and not because we fear He may condemn us to Hell.


That is all a question of interpretation. If Jesus was God (trinitarian doctrine), then his dying words make no sense. Eloi, eloi, lema sebakthani?
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
Wise words :smile:


Maybe so... but a conclusion arrived at by interpretation by stringing selected extracts together and now taught as gospel (forgive the pun). Nowhere does the living Christ say half of that... let alone claim to be God himself. When asked by the Pharisees his reply was who amongst you says I am? The Trinity itself was concluded at the Council of Nicaea by Constantine and his cronies... the 80 or so dissenters threatened with imprisonment or worse if they continued to disagree. Sounds a bit like Brexit, lol.
(edited 5 years ago)
I think the main reason that I believe is purely because I absolutely cannot believe that everything around us came about by random chance. Yes I have doubts, in fact I have doubts on a very regular basis, and that's good. It makes us think about why we believe what we believe and go deeper into the faith in search of our answers.
In terms of past experiences, I have nothing that I believe with absolute certainty was the work of God, there are things that may have been but I couldn't say. I believe that he has had a hand in my life, nudging things along in the right way and making sure I stay on track, and that's enough for me to believe!
Reply 27
Original post by Vinny C
Only because you have been taught the Trinitarian interpretation. I believe in the Bible as much as you but we believe good deeds are more important than bad deeds and salvation. God will judge my soul based on how I have been...


I could easily demonstrate the bible teaching the doctrine of the trinity, but you don't believe the bible, so what's the point? You can't just pick some things from the bible to believe in, and then reject other things (if you're going to fairly represent Jesus).
Original post by Vinny C
Maybe so... but a conclusion arrived at by interpretation by stringing selected extracts together and now taught as gospel (forgive the pun). Nowhere does the living Christ say half of that... never mind claim to be God himself. When asked by the Pharisees his reply was who amongst you says I am? The Trinity itself was concluded at the Council of Nicaea by Constantine and his cronies... the 80 or so dissenters threatened with imprisonment or worse if they continued to disagree. Sounds a bit like Brexit, lol.


Jesus is fully God. When He came to the Earth as a man He temporarily gave up some of His divine attributes in order to be able to exist as a man, which explains His last words and some other verses.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:6-7 KJV)

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:17-18 KJV)

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24 KJV)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 KJV)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (John 8:58 KJV) i.e. He preexisted as God
(edited 5 years ago)
Reply 29
Original post by Vinny C
That is all a question of interpretation. If Jesus was God (trinitarian doctrine), then his dying words make no sense. Eloi, eloi, lema sebakthani?


1) have you read the psalm that Jesus was quoting there?
2) Christians believe Jesus's father is God
Reply 30
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
I thought that was the human part of him? The son comes from the Father I think and I think God made the world with him (The Word).


Careful, that's heresy. Jesus did not come from the Father. Jesus was with the Father from eternity. Read John chapter 1.
Rather than say Jesus is part man and part God, it's best to say Jesus is truly a man and truly God.
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
Perhaps I didn't give very good examples. I think God is view able in nature though and that science works with religion though. (Sorry if I start a debate. I just wanted to mention :smile: )

Can I ask you something? Why would God help a fly unstick its legs when he’s not willing to stop children dying of cancer?

I recommend you watch the song ‘Thank You God’ by Tim Minchin on YouTube.
(edited 5 years ago)
I found the opening post quite interesting and, as an agnostic (a theory of knowledge rather than a belief, which is atheism) I thought I would give a few responses to the arguments presented.

The two examples you give are not, I'm afraid, indicative of the existence of a God (you just found the polystyrene and the bug left...). There is no evidence to suggest that God caused the events, and thus I feel can dismiss it without evidence.

Then, you mention about "God's unconditional love for us" - I'm assuming that is unless your gay (Leviticus 20:13), do not believe in him (John 1:9-11) or are a woman (Timothy 2:11-15). You could quite rightly point out that such views are just a product of the time in which the bible was written; exactly, it's a product of the time it is written, not the work of a timeless God (who you suggest "never changes"), because it's a book of fiction, just as Macbeth was a product of early Stuart England.

"It doesn't matter how many times we mess up. He still loves us. I think that's pretty incredible" - I disagree. If the leader of your country decided whether or not you went to prison based on your submission to him, rather than your actions and intentions, you would quite justifiably say this is unjust. Why, then, is it okay for God to judge you based on your belief in him, rather than how 'good' your intentions and actions are? I would say that it is not "pretty incredible".

"looking at some of the things in nature (mountains in Wales for example) it's hard to believe that there is not some higher power due to how incredible nature is" - Without getting in to what how such arguments regarding the beauty of nature is can be explained scientifically, I don't think that nature is incredible. The "higher power" who designed Mount Snowden, for example, also, then, created Mount St Helen's, in the USA, which when it erupted in 1980 killed 57 people. God, therefore, exists, because he created our incredible nature, which kills us... Oh and he also unconditionally loves us...

If any Christians (or those of other monotheistic religions) are reading, I wonder if they could tell me how they would answer the following questions (some or all of which you may well have heard of and considered before): If God is all powerful (I'm assuming you think he is) then could he create a rock he could not lift? If God is also all knowing, then surely everything is predetermind, and thus why would he predetermine me not to believe in him? If God made us and wanted us to believe in him why do we believe in lots of Gods? What is it you find attractive about religion/ the existence of a God?
Reply 33
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
That's what I meant, I think. I know he's fully divine but fully human. I was just told that perhaps that was the human of him. But didn't Jesus come from the Father in that he is the Word and he came from heaven to serve humanity? What's heresy?


When you say Jesus came from the Father, unless you're very clear what you mean by that (the Father sent him but did not create him), you could easily be interpreted to mean that Jesus hasn't always existed, that somehow the Father brought forth Jesus in a similar sense to how we might have children. That would be a heresy.

Heresy is a serious theological error that denies a fundamental element of the Christian faith. Jesus is the one and only eternal God. Jesus' father is the one and only eternal God. The holy spirit is the one and only eternal God. The trinity is very important. If only more Christian ministers would teach it clearly on Sundays, and explain why it's so important to Christian worship.

Original post by Neptune123
I found the opening post quite interesting and, as an agnostic (a theory of knowledge rather than a belief, which is atheism) I thought I would give a few responses to the arguments presented.

The two examples you give are not, I'm afraid, indicative of the existence of a God (you just found the polystyrene and the bug left...). There is no evidence to suggest that God caused the events, and thus I feel can dismiss it without evidence.

Then, you mention about "God's unconditional love for us" - I'm assuming that is unless your gay (Leviticus 20:13), do not believe in him (John 1:9-11) or are a woman (Timothy 2:11-15). You could quite rightly point out that such views are just a product of the time in which the bible was written; exactly, it's a product of the time it is written, not the work of a timeless God (who you suggest "never changes"), because it's a book of fiction, just as Macbeth was a product of early Stuart England.

"It doesn't matter how many times we mess up. He still loves us. I think that's pretty incredible" - I disagree. If the leader of your country decided whether or not you went to prison based on your submission to him, rather than your actions and intentions, you would quite justifiably say this is unjust. Why, then, is it okay for God to judge you based on your belief in him, rather than how 'good' your intentions and actions are? I would say that it is not "pretty incredible".

"looking at some of the things in nature (mountains in Wales for example) it's hard to believe that there is not some higher power due to how incredible nature is" - Without getting in to what how such arguments regarding the beauty of nature is can be explained scientifically, I don't think that nature is incredible. The "higher power" who designed Mount Snowden, for example, also, then, created Mount St Helen's, in the USA, which when it erupted in 1980 killed 57 people. God, therefore, exists, because he created our incredible nature, which kills us... Oh and he also unconditionally loves us...

If any Christians (or those of other monotheistic religions) are reading, I wonder if they could tell me how they would answer the following questions (some or all of which you may well have heard of and considered before): If God is all powerful (I'm assuming you think he is) then could he create a rock he could not lift? If God is also all knowing, then surely everything is predetermind, and thus why would he predetermine me not to believe in him? If God made us and wanted us to believe in him why do we believe in lots of Gods? What is it you find attractive about religion/ the existence of a God?

The bible doesn't read like a piece of fiction or a play like Macbeth. The writers of the gospels for example clearly believed what they were writing, and they actually try to persuade the reader. They construct arguments, make illustrations to help explain their points, claim fulfilled prophecies in Jesus, make predictions about the future etc. When you say it's just fiction, you demonstrate that either you haven't read even a chapter of the bible, or you don't understand what a piece of fiction is. It clearly doesn't read like fiction.

I do agree partly with what you're saying about "unconditional love", in that the bible does command people to turn to Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin and eternal joy with their God. It does warn people that they will face a just punishment for every evil they have done, unless they are joined to the sin-bearer, Jesus. But sometimes people do coin the term "unconditional love", in that God loves his people, not because they have met a particular moral requirement, but because he chose to have mercy on an undeserving people.

You quite boldly proclaimed that nature is not incredible. You are entitled to that opinion, but I suspect you are being dishonest to yourself. Why not look around the very room you are in right now? Have a look at the piece of technology in your hands. Now look at your own body. Your own body is far more complex and has far better feats of engineering than anything we have ever created. Why not have a look at your own blood cells under a microscope, or the blood vessels that transport that blood around your body while you sleep? Why not look at the proteins involved in muscle contraction, and the production and use of ATP that makes this possible? And all these systems renew themselves without you choosing them to. I could go on of course.

"If God is all powerful (I'm assuming you think he is) then could he create a rock he could not lift?"
No, he can't. God cannot do things that are illogical. That would contradict his own nature. It's like saying can God not be God? Can a square be a circle? The fact that you even use words that have specific meanings when you ask the question demonstrates that the question is invalid.

"If God is also all knowing, then surely everything is predetermind, and thus why would he predetermine me not to believe in him? If God made us and wanted us to believe in him why do we believe in lots of Gods?"
This is a good question, because I think it demonstrates a flaw in the OP's theology. I do think the bible teaches that God has decided on what will take place in the future, and that includes our destinies. At the same time, I think the bible teaches that people are morally responsible for their actions, and they will be rightly judged. The existence of both these things at the same time is often described as "Christian compatibilism".

One example of this in the bible that I think you should have a look at is Acts 4:27-28, where early Christians pray to God, "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
The claim here is that Jesus' crucifixion, and the people who made that happen, were actually ordained to take place before they took place. There are lots of examples of this sort of concept in the bible, but you get my point.

"What is it you find attractive about religion/ the existence of a God?"
I think first and foremost, we need to not place our feelings about what is "attractive" at the forefront of the issue. We should instead seek what is true, whether it is pleasant or not.
Secondly, the bible talks about how God made man in such a way that he knows God. There is a sense in which people understand the divine. I would argue that none of us live as though were simply highy developed animals. Earlier some agnostic/atheist talked about suffering, but their complaining is irrational if there is no god, and we're just highly developed animals. We don't sit and mourn the gazelles who get eaten by predator animals in the Sahara desert, do we? We go to school or work, earning money and rearing our young, and we tell ourselves and our young that they are valuable and meaningful. Why does that make any sense? You may say it's how man survives, but then how can you make claims to know anything if you're ultimately living to survive? I could go on, but my point is the bible teaches we all know God, but we suppress the truth about him in our rebellion against him.
Thirdly, there is a lot to be glad about being a Christian. It's comforting and exhilirating to be in relationship with God. Remember, Christians believe God is the greatest thing in all existence. Being a Christian gives life purpose and direction. It gives you motivation to serve others. It gives you gratitude and contentment. I personally have found it beneficial when I have suffered from depression. Lots of benefits.
Obviously there are costs too. You're often disrespected/patronised for example. You often can't do things that people want you to do because of your moral convictions. But the benefits outweigh the costs obviously. What beats Jesus and eternal life with him?
Original post by Vinny C
Far too many think being a Christian is about accepting Christ as your saviour and job done! It's about learning from his teachings and trying to be a better, more understanding and tolerant person.

I think to an extent it is just about accepting christ as your saviour but then, because you've accepted him, you take the time to learn and show those qualities. So i don't think that youre saved by the understanding and tolerance, but it sure does make you a good witness and follower :smile:
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
The Bible isn't fiction at all. It is a book containing many accounts of historical events from different people which back the others up (It would be incredibly hard to keep a conspiracy for that long) although some it is perhaps poetry such as the account of creation in genesis which is an explanation of the creation (matches up with the big bang and theistic evolution, I think). We all mess up. Often people think going to heaven is about whether someone is good or not but it's about whether we choose to be with God or not. Of course I don't think we can just keep sinning without trying to improve. I'm not really the best person to explain suffering but the world wasn't originally like this. It's broken. God doesn't want us to suffer and that's why one day it's going to end. Admittedly I'm not sure how exactly things began as the genesis account is poetic but there is clearly some truth in it from scientific theories of creation. Surely all of this around us is far too complicated and statistically unlikely for it to just have happened? I don't things are predetermined as we have freewill and this is so we can understand what love is and not be, well basically robots. There's something called Maslow's hierarchy of need. At the top of this is self transcendence, I think this is a natural/inbuilt calling to God.

Hope this makes sense :smile:

Btw yes women were treated differnetly in a Old Testament Biblical context (Jewish custom?) but women were also the first to Jesus' tomb. I think this is a good change and many women are now called to be Priests.

Okay... thanks for the answer (very prompt!) - let me break down your argument.

"The Bible isn't fiction at all. It is a book containing many accounts of historical events from different people which back the others up" - except, of course, when, in Samuel, it claims that God incited David to count the fighting men of Israel and, in Chronicles, it claims that Satan did.

I agree that it is perfectly possible to agree with the big bang and evolution and a God - a point of agreement :smile:

Why did God create a world that is "broken"? And why, if proof that God loves us is that he will end our suffering, did God create us in the first place?

"I don't think things are predetermined, as we have free will..." - I'm assuming you agree with the idea of a God which is omnipotent and omniscient (the usual position of Christians). If God is all powerful (ie can make all things happen) and is all knowing (ie knows both what has happened and what will), how does predestination not follow?

Personally I don't think we do have free will. All of our actions are caused either by someone or something forcing us to them or by our wants. Let's say you make a cup of tea - either this is because you want tea or you're forced to make it. If you're forced to make it you don't have free will over that decision and you don't choose your wants, so if you want tea, then that decision is also not free.
Original post by Pride
When you say Jesus came from the Father, unless you're very clear what you mean by that (the Father sent him but did not create him), you could easily be interpreted to mean that Jesus hasn't always existed, that somehow the Father brought forth Jesus in a similar sense to how we might have children. That would be a heresy.

Heresy is a serious theological error that denies a fundamental element of the Christian faith. Jesus is the one and only eternal God. Jesus' father is the one and only eternal God. The holy spirit is the one and only eternal God. The trinity is very important. If only more Christian ministers would teach it clearly on Sundays, and explain why it's so important to Christian worship.


The bible doesn't read like a piece of fiction or a play like Macbeth. The writers of the gospels for example clearly believed what they were writing, and they actually try to persuade the reader. They construct arguments, make illustrations to help explain their points, claim fulfilled prophecies in Jesus, make predictions about the future etc. When you say it's just fiction, you demonstrate that either you haven't read even a chapter of the bible, or you don't understand what a piece of fiction is. It clearly doesn't read like fiction.

I do agree partly with what you're saying about "unconditional love", in that the bible does command people to turn to Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin and eternal joy with their God. It does warn people that they will face a just punishment for every evil they have done, unless they are joined to the sin-bearer, Jesus. But sometimes people do coin the term "unconditional love", in that God loves his people, not because they have met a particular moral requirement, but because he chose to have mercy on an undeserving people.

You quite boldly proclaimed that nature is not incredible. You are entitled to that opinion, but I suspect you are being dishonest to yourself. Why not look around the very room you are in right now? Have a look at the piece of technology in your hands. Now look at your own body. Your own body is far more complex and has far better feats of engineering than anything we have ever created. Why not have a look at your own blood cells under a microscope, or the blood vessels that transport that blood around your body while you sleep? Why not look at the proteins involved in muscle contraction, and the production and use of ATP that makes this possible? And all these systems renew themselves without you choosing them to. I could go on of course.

"If God is all powerful (I'm assuming you think he is) then could he create a rock he could not lift?"
No, he can't. God cannot do things that are illogical. That would contradict his own nature. It's like saying can God not be God? Can a square be a circle? The fact that you even use words that have specific meanings when you ask the question demonstrates that the question is invalid.

"If God is also all knowing, then surely everything is predetermind, and thus why would he predetermine me not to believe in him? If God made us and wanted us to believe in him why do we believe in lots of Gods?"
This is a good question, because I think it demonstrates a flaw in the OP's theology. I do think the bible teaches that God has decided on what will take place in the future, and that includes our destinies. At the same time, I think the bible teaches that people are morally responsible for their actions, and they will be rightly judged. The existence of both these things at the same time is often described as "Christian compatibilism".

One example of this in the bible that I think you should have a look at is Acts 4:27-28, where early Christians pray to God, "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
The claim here is that Jesus' crucifixion, and the people who made that happen, were actually ordained to take place before they took place. There are lots of examples of this sort of concept in the bible, but you get my point.

"What is it you find attractive about religion/ the existence of a God?"
I think first and foremost, we need to not place our feelings about what is "attractive" at the forefront of the issue. We should instead seek what is true, whether it is pleasant or not.
Secondly, the bible talks about how God made man in such a way that he knows God. There is a sense in which people understand the divine. I would argue that none of us live as though were simply highy developed animals. Earlier some agnostic/atheist talked about suffering, but their complaining is irrational if there is no god, and we're just highly developed animals. We don't sit and mourn the gazelles who get eaten by predator animals in the Sahara desert, do we? We go to school or work, earning money and rearing our young, and we tell ourselves and our young that they are valuable and meaningful. Why does that make any sense? You may say it's how man survives, but then how can you make claims to know anything if you're ultimately living to survive? I could go on, but my point is the bible teaches we all know God, but we suppress the truth about him in our rebellion against him.
Thirdly, there is a lot to be glad about being a Christian. It's comforting and exhilirating to be in relationship with God. Remember, Christians believe God is the greatest thing in all existence. Being a Christian gives life purpose and direction. It gives you motivation to serve others. It gives you gratitude and contentment. I personally have found it beneficial when I have suffered from depression. Lots of benefits.
Obviously there are costs too. You're often disrespected/patronised for example. You often can't do things that people want you to do because of your moral convictions. But the benefits outweigh the costs obviously. What beats Jesus and eternal life with him?

Firstly, on the point about fiction - do you not think that the companions of Muhammed who wrote the Qu'ran also believed what they were writing, that they also constructed arguments, made illustrations, made predictions about the future etc. Yet, presumably as you're a Christian, you think the Qu'ran is fictitious.

Secondly, the "incredibility" of the functions of my body is a result of millions of years of evolution, adapting to my surrounding environment (and evolution doesn't require a God). I'm assuming you believe in evolution, but if not then why would God design us with an appendix?

Thirdly, how can I be held objectively morally responsible (in the eyes of God) for something God made me do? I don't believe in God - that was what God pre-determined me to believe - God punishes me for something I therefore could not control. Or do I miss your point?

Fourthly, I'm afraid you are a highly developed animal, from the same common ancestor as a monkey. There is not objective morality - it is not objectively immoral for you to steel (although we put our own subjective morality condemning it).

Finally - on "it's comforting and exhilirating to be in a relationship with God... Being a Christian gives life purpose and direction" - I still feel I have purpose not being a Christian. May I also suggest that perhaps your belief in God is more the result of the "comfort" and "purpose" you feel it gives you, rather than a rational, logical belief system. I might well be wrong about that and I do not wish to cause offence :-) !
Original post by andreasz
I think you are confusing salvation with fellowship. We are all guilty before God because we have fallen short of His standard of perfection so we cannot qualify for Heaven with our own works (so we deserve Hell). Therefore, because of God’s great love for us He sent His Son, God in the flesh, to live a prefect life (He was the only sinless person ever) and die a horrible death on the cross. With the blood He shed on the cross, He paid for all the sins of humanity. He was then buried and bodily rose from the dead the 3rd day. So as our sins were imputed onto Him, His righteousness is freely imputed onto us for free when we believe these things and trust on Him alone for salvation. In this way, God sees His son’s perfect righetousness when He looks at us and not our own filthy righteousness so we are counted worthy for Heaven even though we are not. Our works amd efforts do not contribute to our salavtion. After we are saved, we then should strive to live according to Jesus’ commandments and we have the Holy Spirit inside of us to guide us to do so. We will of course fail daily to reach that perfection because our flesh remains dead but we should strive nonetheless. These efforts are not part of salvation however, salavtion is by grace alone through faith alone. In other words, we serve God because we love Him for saving us and not because we fear He may condemn us to Hell.

I like that, i think you've said it well :smile:
Original post by MerpDerpPotato
I have to admit suffering in the world is horrible but I don't think it's fair to blame it on God. I'm not sure why suffering happens exactly. A lot of it is to do with the things people do but some of it is natural (whether this is due to the broken world we live in or the devil trying to pull us away from God I don't know, I think it varies). I'm not really the best person to explain this but suffering was covered in a Christian group I go to earlier in the week. Yes suffering is awful and some terrible things happen in this world but it will come to and end and God can bring good things out of it. Often people are made stronger through it. Of course cancer is horrific and it's horrible that it happens to anyone, let alone Children, so I apologise if I sound insensitive (I'm not particularly brilliant at wording things). I think God wants to help people but there are so many different factors to consider in the bigger picture. I'm not sure how to say this exactly. If everything was good in the world how would people know God was helping them? Would anyone seek him and believe in him for more than solid proof?


It's also worth pointing out that in the beginning, God created us perfect, but because of Adam's disobedience, sin, and therefore evil and death, entered the world. It isn't God who causes these things to happen, it is man with his free will.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by hehwhat
I like that, i think you've said it well :smile:


Thanks. It's really important that we are always crystal clear on the Gospel (salvation) because not only is it the basis for everything else, but frankly it's also the one doctrine that can prevent someone from getting saved if they get it wrong.
(edited 5 years ago)