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    I propose we rename the U.K. Airstrip One to celebrate.

    The gist of the deal seems to me that we are in the EU in all but name, but have no democratic input at all and have to pay a huge fee for this privilege.




    Now this leaves us with three options

    A) the Tories grow a spine and ditch may (unlikely- plus even if they do it’ll be rigged so that someone like Hunt will replace her)

    B) The deal is passed and the U.K. becomes a vassal state

    C) Brexit will get overturned.

    Now B and C will probably result in a Corbyn government and the Tory party getting hammered.

    * * *

    As a right wing nationalist, this is wonderful news- this is basically the ideal ground for a new U.K. alt right Party to be formed either separately or in UKIP or the Conservative Party. The Only way to save the Tories is for them to basically get them to elect Nigel Farage as leader and run on a Trump platform and telling Brussels to do one and leave without a deal.
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    hmmmm if Britain were an industrial powerhouse then there might be some purpose in cutting loose from our largest trading partners. unfortunately we are now world leaders in Charity Shops, Hipster Cafés and rubbish TV. good luck with that.
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    I think May will go and we will get a no-deal Brexit. By that time, though, I will be firmly planted on enemy soil with an EU passport and a baguette, and be known by most as Pierre.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I propose we rename the U.K. Airstrip One to celebrate.

    The gist of the deal seems to me that we are in the EU in all but name, but have no democratic input at all and have to pay a huge fee for this privilege.




    Now this leaves us with three options

    A) the Tories grow a spine and ditch may (unlikely- plus even if they do it’ll be rigged so that someone like Hunt will replace her)

    B) The deal is passed and the U.K. becomes a vassal state

    C) Brexit will get overturned.

    Now B and C will probably result in a Corbyn government and the Tory party getting hammered.

    * * *

    As a right wing nationalist, this is wonderful news- this is basically the ideal ground for a new U.K. alt right Party to be formed either separately or in UKIP or the Conservative Party. The Only way to save the Tories is for them to basically get them to elect Nigel Farage as leader and run on a Trump platform and telling Brussels to do one and leave without a deal.
    Unless the replacement for May is someone like Gove - i.e. a Brexiter who is essentially prepared to accept the vast bulk of proposed withdrawal agreement on at least a temporary basis until something else can be prepared - then trying to replace her would be stupid. Electing anyone more hardline is likely to split the party, and that would deliver a 1997-scale Labour landslide.

    Leaving without a deal (unlikely to last more than a few weeks anyway) would be basically electoral suicide for whoever actually does it.

    The idea that we can do what a far more popular and talented Greek Syriza government with a lot less to lose couldn't manage in 2015 is delusional.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Unless the replacement for May is someone like Gove - i.e. a Brexiter who is essentially prepared to accept the vast bulk of proposed withdrawal agreement on at least a temporary basis until something else can be prepared - then trying to replace her would be stupid. Electing anyone more hardline is likely to split the party, and that would deliver a 1997-scale Labour landslide.

    Leaving without a deal (unlikely to last more than a few weeks anyway) would be basically electoral suicide for whoever actually does it.

    The idea that we can do what a far more popular and talented Greek Syriza government with a lot less to lose couldn't manage in 2015 is delusional.
    RE a hardliner becoming PM, highly unlikely as it is but if one were to get through they would have the support of the grassroots- also liberal conservatives aren’t particularly keen on Corbyn either. It would be a great day for democracy if these highly unpopular liberal ‘moderates’ got booted out of both parties and be the sole preserve of the Lib Dem’s.

    NO ONE could sell this current brexit deal.

    We don’t know for definite what a no deal would look like. Whilst I do not believe our economy will improve I don’t thonk it will be the disaster it’s made out to be. If it does turn out to be a disaster then people will at least have seen their mistake. Democracy innit.

    Much as I like yanis varoufakis, I disagree. The U.K. is far more economically and politically powerful than Greece. It will still lose in any negotiation with the EU though. Which is why negotiating a deal on their terms is a dumb move.



    If I was in chsge I’d try Reach an agreement with the EU on mutually beneficial terms or launch countermeasures. They can hurt us more than vice Versa in the short term but especially if we pivot towards the US, Russia and Iran in terms of trade and security we can hurt an already crumbling EU. Barnier et al knows the government won’t countenance that.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    As a right wing nationalist, this is wonderful news- this is basically the ideal ground for a new U.K. alt right Party to be formed either separately or in UKIP or the Conservative Party. The Only way to save the Tories is for them to basically get them to elect Nigel Farage as leader and run on a Trump platform and telling Brussels to do one and leave without a deal.
    You seem to be getting hyped up over nothing.

    It's possible that Brexit could totally fail but, fundamentally, support for the Conservative Party runs pretty damn deep. It'd take a lot more than Brexit to fail for people to turn their backs en masse to the Tories, especially while someone like Corybn (who as you've rightfully said is very undesireable to moderate voters) is still the leader of Labour.

    It's worth remembering that the Conservatives aren't doing badly polling wise. People vote based on a wide range of topics and a lot of people don't care about Brexit.

    As for alt/far right politics, this has never gained much traction in the UK; just look at how UKIP rose and collapsed based on one issue alone and how the BNP never achieved anything.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    You seem to be getting hyped up over nothing.

    It's possible that Brexit could totally fail but, fundamentally, support for the Conservative Party runs pretty damn deep. It'd take a lot more than Brexit to fail for people to turn their backs en masse to the Tories, especially while someone like Corybn (who as you've rightfully said is very undesireable to moderate voters) is still the leader of Labour.

    It's worth remembering that the Conservatives aren't doing badly polling wise. People vote based on a wide range of topics and a lot of people don't care about Brexit.

    As for alt/far right politics, this has never gained much traction in the UK; just look at how UKIP rose and collapsed based on one issue alone and how the BNP never achieved anything.
    If brexit is a complete failure and has been mishandled the Tories will be punished electorally and will probably lead to an ‘extremist Corbyn government. That alone will be annihilation of Blair’s legacy.

    Britain has an entrenched voting system designed to shut out newer parties but it can be overcome- observe Scotland and the snp 2015. Now I don’t think that will happen, what may happen is a repeat of 2015 where ukip were able to drag the Tories to the right.

    A lot of prople don’t care about brexit, but if it is handled poorly it will be noticed.

    As for alt right politics in the U.K., we are in a pretty terrible position compared to the US and Europe admittedly but it cannot be overstated that in the biggest political debate in the UKs history re Brexit, it was the Alt Right that won.

    Looking st history is always useful, but we are entering a new era of politics which is being felt across the West, not just politically culturally too. In the seventies people say the right won the economy case and the left won the social case. I hope we will be seeing these positions reverse as globalisation and hyper individualism continues to ravage the world.
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    Rofl... most wonderful thing about Brexit is that it does not work. If 3 mechanics tell you the car you have been sold is crap... time to complain to the guy who sold it to you. No amount of other mechanics will change this fact.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    If brexit is a complete failure and has been mishandled the Tories will be punished electorally and will probably lead to an ‘extremist Corbyn government. That alone will be annihilation of Blair’s legacy.

    Britain has an entrenched voting system designed to shut out newer parties but it can be overcome- observe Scotland and the snp 2015. Now I don’t think that will happen, what may happen is a repeat of 2015 where ukip were able to drag the Tories to the right.

    A lot of prople don’t care about brexit, but if it is handled poorly it will be noticed.

    As for alt right politics in the U.K., we are in a pretty terrible position compared to the US and Europe admittedly but it cannot be overstated that in the biggest political debate in the UKs history re Brexit, it was the Alt Right that won.

    Looking st history is always useful, but we are entering a new era of politics which is being felt across the West, not just politically culturally too. In the seventies people say the right won the economy case and the left won the social case. I hope we will be seeing these positions reverse as globalisation and hyper individualism continues to ravage the world.
    If a poorly managed Brexit were enough for the Tories to be punished electorally then we'd already be seeing the consequences of that in the polls, which we are not. There are other factors that people vote upon and that's why they are still on par with Labour, or even beating them in some cases.

    Leaving the EU isn't going to turn the clocks back on the social case, sorry buddy.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    If a poorly managed Brexit were enough for the Tories to be punished electorally then we'd already be seeing the consequences of that in the polls, which we are not. There are other factors that people vote upon and that's why they are still on par with Labour, or even beating them in some cases.

    Leaving the EU isn't going to turn the clocks back on the social case, sorry buddy.
    No. As I’ve had to say a million times, we haven’t left yet - the effects of brexit thus far ha e been minimal if non existent to normal people. Should a no deal brexit happen and be a doomsday scenario, then the Tories will be punished. Should this deal be accepted then the brexit vanguard will be enraged and the Tories also punished. The only win situation for the Tories I can perceive is if a brexiteer gets in power and makes a success of brexit, if all things stay the same.

    As regards the social problem, I broadly agree (one of the reasons I voted Remain) - most of the problems are due to The liberal agenda that affects the world not exclusively Brussels. It doesn’t matter if we leave the EU and are still run by ‘conservatives’ like Theresa May.

    (A note on turning the clocks back- the linear view of history is false. The most accurate way of looking at is cyclical I think.

    Social liberalism probably reached its peak in Sodom and Gomorrah more than 2000 years ago 😂)
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    The ONLY way out of this mess is a second referendum. The only reason it has so far been avoided is the fear of thugs roaming the streets chanting will of the people (even though it no longer is). One way around this would be for Johnson to appear and make a public apology. Sorry I misinformed you, sorry I misled you. Come on you fat ****, put the good of the Nation first for a change instead of trying to feather your own nest at everyone else's expense.

    Doesn't even have to be Johnson... any high profile Brexiteer having second thoughts will do.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    hmmmm if Britain were an industrial powerhouse then there might be some purpose in cutting loose from our largest trading partners. unfortunately we are now world leaders in Charity Shops, Hipster Cafés and rubbish TV. good luck with that.
    Don't forget food banks.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I propose we rename the U.K. Airstrip One to celebrate.

    The gist of the deal seems to me that we are in the EU in all but name, but have no democratic input at all and have to pay a huge fee for this privilege.




    Now this leaves us with three options

    A) the Tories grow a spine and ditch may (unlikely- plus even if they do it’ll be rigged so that someone like Hunt will replace her)

    B) The deal is passed and the U.K. becomes a vassal state

    C) Brexit will get overturned.

    Now B and C will probably result in a Corbyn government and the Tory party getting hammered.
    Not sure C would. I personally think it would win them as many new supporters as lose old ones, if not more.
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    Would you trust the fate of the Nation in the hands of this man? Camp Brexit did!



    Official Brexit policy: Fiddlesticks, fudge and fig-leaves!

    Vote Monster Raving Loony!
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    No. As I’ve had to say a million times, we haven’t left yet - the effects of brexit thus far ha e been minimal if non existent to normal people. Should a no deal brexit happen and be a doomsday scenario, then the Tories will be punished. Should this deal be accepted then the brexit vanguard will be enraged and the Tories also punished. The only win situation for the Tories I can perceive is if a brexiteer gets in power and makes a success of brexit, if all things stay the same.

    As regards the social problem, I broadly agree (one of the reasons I voted Remain) - most of the problems are due to The liberal agenda that affects the world not exclusively Brussels. It doesn’t matter if we leave the EU and are still run by ‘conservatives’ like Theresa May.

    (A note on turning the clocks back- the linear view of history is false. The most accurate way of looking at is cyclical I think.

    Social liberalism probably reached its peak in Sodom and Gomorrah more than 2000 years ago 😂)
    You're forgetting several scenarios here:
    - No deal Brexit happens and it isn't doomsday.
    - No deal Brexit happens, things go wrong, but ultimately the UK/Tories pull through and things remain stable.
    - Chequers/some other deal is agreed and most leavers/remainers accept it.
    - Chequers/some other deal is agreed, most people dislike it but this has no affect on Tory voteability (as already discussed, Brexit isn't the only factor affecting votes).

    So... no. The argument you're trying to push is dependent upon Brexit going badly and/or people disliking the outcome of Brexit enough to defer from the Tory party. Neither of those things are necessarily true, even if to some extent I wish they were.

    People who are strongly socially conservative tend to be either religious or just old. The elderly die out and religiousity, globally, is declining and/or becoming more liberal every generation. Something majorly significant would have to happen to change that.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    You're forgetting several scenarios here:
    - No deal Brexit happens and it isn't doomsday.
    - No deal Brexit happens, things go wrong, but ultimately the UK/Tories pull through and things remain stable.
    - Chequers/some other deal is agreed and most leavers/remainers accept it.
    - Chequers/some other deal is agreed, most people dislike it but this has no affect on Tory voteability (as already discussed, Brexit isn't the only factor affecting votes).

    So... no. The argument you're trying to push is dependent upon Brexit going badly and/or people disliking the outcome of Brexit enough to defer from the Tory party. Neither of those things are necessarily true, even if to some extent I wish they were.

    People who are strongly socially conservative tend to be either religious or just old. The elderly die out and religiousity, globally, is declining and/or becoming more liberal every generation. Something majorly significant would have to happen to change that.
    The only person rubbing his hands gleefully over Brexit going badly wrong is Corbyn... he sees it as his fast and only track to power. His remain speech back in 2016 had about as much enthusiasm as a dentist's waiting room. Tiny remain button (HDTV required to even see it) and a mumbled tirade about workers rights. I think he forgot what he was there for.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I propose we rename the U.K. Airstrip One to celebrate.

    The gist of the deal seems to me that we are in the EU in all but name, but have no democratic input at all and have to pay a huge fee for this privilege.




    Now this leaves us with three options

    A) the Tories grow a spine and ditch may (unlikely- plus even if they do it’ll be rigged so that someone like Hunt will replace her)

    B) The deal is passed and the U.K. becomes a vassal state

    C) Brexit will get overturned.

    Now B and C will probably result in a Corbyn government and the Tory party getting hammered.

    * * *

    As a right wing nationalist, this is wonderful news- this is basically the ideal ground for a new U.K. alt right Party to be formed either separately or in UKIP or the Conservative Party. The Only way to save the Tories is for them to basically get them to elect Nigel Farage as leader and run on a Trump platform and telling Brussels to do one and leave without a deal.
    A) Won't happen and given the mutual exit requirement, that is a concern.

    B) As much as i would love to believe that electoral pressure will kill the deal or our next election this won't happen. We have seen in recent polls a ~4% move to the Kippers since the deal but we saw the same shift in July post-Cheqers and after the emotion of it all we averaged a 40-37 lead in October. Indeed it is my belief (not all Lab and Lib voters are hard Remoaners) that we might even get a deal dividend electorally come April simply because the economy should be improving again (pent up investment) and we can spin it. There are very few hard liners who will go with the Kippers for good, especially once the migration bill gets passed and spoken about.

    C) No Tory leader who did this would be forgiven. If May goes for a general election to get a majority for a deal that is one thing, but if she went for a neverendum then win or lose i would not vote for the Tories so long as those folks who voted for a referendum led the party.

    ..

    I should say that i am actually not sure she will even lose the vote. Never underestimate the number of Lab Mp's who will show themselves to be cowards or opportunists by abstaining on the most important vote in decades.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A) Won't happen and given the mutual exit requirement, that is a concern.

    B) As much as i would love to believe that electoral pressure will kill the deal or our next election this won't happen. We have seen in recent polls a ~4% move to the Kippers since the deal but we saw the same shift in July post-Cheqers and after the emotion of it all we averaged a 40-37 lead in October. Indeed it is my belief (not all Lab and Lib voters are hard Remoaners) that we might even get a deal dividend electorally come April simply because the economy should be improving again (pent up investment) and we can spin it. There are very few hard liners who will go with the Kippers for good, especially once the migration bill gets passed and spoken about.

    C) No Tory leader who did this would be forgiven. If May goes for a general election to get a majority for a deal that is one thing, but if she went for a neverendum then win or lose i would not vote for the Tories so long as those folks who voted for a referendum led the party.

    ..

    I should say that i am actually not sure she will even lose the vote. Never underestimate the number of Lab Mp's who will show themselves to be cowards or opportunists by abstaining on the most important vote in decades.

    Oh I don’t, politicians in both parties are largely spineless. I’d say the deal is 50/50. The balls on Corbyn s court, so far he (or more likely, his handler Milne) have been very shrewd.

    Have no idea why your excited by the migration bill.it seems to have been devised by idiot liberal brexiters/ disingenuous remainders who think brexit was about ending discrimination against non EU migrants rather than cutting immigration numbers substantially. Javid, Gove, Hannan are on record sayingbtgdy want MORE immigration. Even Boris said he favours amnesty for Illegal immigrants. Trusting the Tories with immigration is like trusting Trident with Corbyn.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Oh I don’t, politicians in both parties are largely spineless. I’d say the deal is 50/50. The balls on Corbyn s court, so far he (or more likely, his handler Milne) have been very shrewd.

    Have no idea why your excited by the migration bill.it seems to have been devised by idiot liberal brexiters/ disingenuous remainders who think brexit was about ending discrimination against non EU migrants rather than cutting immigration numbers substantially. Javid, Gove, Hannan are on record sayingbtgdy want MORE immigration. Even Boris said he favours amnesty for Illegal immigrants. Trusting the Tories with immigration is like trusting Trident with Corbyn.
    Oh i personally don't care about immigration from the EU however politically it will only yield a dividend at the next election. Moreso if Lab oppose the bill.
 
 
 
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