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The absoloute state of British politics
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Let’s look at the main parties
Conservative
Their leader is currently doing a terrible job implementing a policy she personally voted against. They year on year fail to meet their budget and immigration targets, presumably because they don’t believe in them. Socially they believe in the exact same nonsense as the other parties.
Likes: Rich Donors, foreign wars, immigration for low wages (sshh)
Dislikes: The poor, the environment
Labour Party
The party formerly of the working class has long abandoned them in favour of affluent liberals and minorities. Now lead by a brexiteer socialist relic of the 70s. They think they’re revolutionary but have the same values as Googles HR department.
Likes: Liberalism, Immigration for votes!(shh) Islam,
Dislikes: white people, free speech
Liberal Democrat’s
As democrats they obviously think we should ignore the biggest democratic vote in the UK history.
A tolerant party that forced its last leader out due to his Christian beliefs) like the Labour Party, as liberals they strongly believe in people having the right to believe in what they want you to believe in.
Likes: The EU, drugs, censorship
Dislikes: The U.K., democracy, law and order
UKIP
The party of garish colours and dumb baby boomers. Sadly probably the best of the bunch.
Likes: the white working class, pensioners, tackiness,, classical liberalism, pubs
Dislikes: organisation, things that will help the working class besides less immigration.
Snp
Wants Scotland to secede from the UK so it can by the EU instead. Ultra liberal party that’s convinced it’s supporters it’s somehow nationalist. This de facto makes it a rather bizarre Scott’s only version of the Liberal Democrat’s.
Ultra feminist ex leader Alex salmons is currently under investigation for sexual abuse claims. Well imagine my shock...
Likes: Brussels, middle class subsidises
Dislikes: Westminster, referendum results
Plaid Cymru
They want to boost their economy by doing more to bring back a dead and obsolete language. Probably the madeest of the bunch. Like the snp want to be run by Brussels not Westminster.’
Likes: unpronounceable gibberish on signs, Druids... who cares?
Dislikes: reality
Conservative
Their leader is currently doing a terrible job implementing a policy she personally voted against. They year on year fail to meet their budget and immigration targets, presumably because they don’t believe in them. Socially they believe in the exact same nonsense as the other parties.
Likes: Rich Donors, foreign wars, immigration for low wages (sshh)
Dislikes: The poor, the environment
Labour Party
The party formerly of the working class has long abandoned them in favour of affluent liberals and minorities. Now lead by a brexiteer socialist relic of the 70s. They think they’re revolutionary but have the same values as Googles HR department.
Likes: Liberalism, Immigration for votes!(shh) Islam,
Dislikes: white people, free speech
Liberal Democrat’s
As democrats they obviously think we should ignore the biggest democratic vote in the UK history.
A tolerant party that forced its last leader out due to his Christian beliefs) like the Labour Party, as liberals they strongly believe in people having the right to believe in what they want you to believe in.
Likes: The EU, drugs, censorship
Dislikes: The U.K., democracy, law and order
UKIP
The party of garish colours and dumb baby boomers. Sadly probably the best of the bunch.
Likes: the white working class, pensioners, tackiness,, classical liberalism, pubs
Dislikes: organisation, things that will help the working class besides less immigration.
Snp
Wants Scotland to secede from the UK so it can by the EU instead. Ultra liberal party that’s convinced it’s supporters it’s somehow nationalist. This de facto makes it a rather bizarre Scott’s only version of the Liberal Democrat’s.
Ultra feminist ex leader Alex salmons is currently under investigation for sexual abuse claims. Well imagine my shock...
Likes: Brussels, middle class subsidises
Dislikes: Westminster, referendum results
Plaid Cymru
They want to boost their economy by doing more to bring back a dead and obsolete language. Probably the madeest of the bunch. Like the snp want to be run by Brussels not Westminster.’
Likes: unpronounceable gibberish on signs, Druids... who cares?
Dislikes: reality
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#4
(Original post by Davij038)
Point is we’re in a political crisis and there is a complete vacuum of new political ideas or leaders
Point is we’re in a political crisis and there is a complete vacuum of new political ideas or leaders
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#6
(Original post by Davij038)
Labour Party
The party formerly of the working class has long abandoned them in favour of affluent liberals and minorities.
Labour Party
The party formerly of the working class has long abandoned them in favour of affluent liberals and minorities.
So basically where the left is represented by a Clinton or Macron the right can pick up the traditional vote the left used to get on class conflict grounds. But an internationalist/globalist left represented by a corbyn type stance that focuses on redistribution of wealth and class conflict can actually buck the trend.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2018.pdf
On immigration, being pro migrant is a point of principle for the internationalist left. Any positive or negative effects are a bonus or drag. Cameron managed to get enough fo their votes. Their social conservatism and shopkeeper thatcherism make them prime targets for the conservative party. Although I imagine such liberal toryism is basically communism for you.
If the right really wanted to and could get over its racism, migrant communities are a great source for conservative votes.
Last edited by ChaoticButterfly; 2 years ago
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(Original post by jason0597)
What did you vote for in the referendum?
What did you vote for in the referendum?
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
This isn't true. As Piketty has shown (see below) Labour has the support of the highly educated and low paid (For the younger generations they often fit both of these criteria). By focusing on class and redistribution of wealth the UK labour party has managed to buck the trend where in other countries (eg france and US) the division in politics of left vs right is is realigning on "globalist" (high education, high income) vs "natavist" (low education, low income) lines.
So basically where the left is represented by a Clinton or Macron the right can pick up the traditional vote the left used to get on class conflict grounds. But an internationalist/globalist left represented by a corbyn type stance that focuses on redistribution of wealth and class conflict can actually buck the trend.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2018.pdf
On immigration, being pro migrant is a point of principle for the internationalist left. Any positive or negative effects are a bonus or drag. Cameron managed to get enough fo their votes. Their social conservatism and shopkeeper thatcherism make them prime targets for the conservative party. Although I imagine such liberal toryism is basically communism for you.
If the right really wanted to and could get over its racism, migrant communities are a great source for conservative votes.
This isn't true. As Piketty has shown (see below) Labour has the support of the highly educated and low paid (For the younger generations they often fit both of these criteria). By focusing on class and redistribution of wealth the UK labour party has managed to buck the trend where in other countries (eg france and US) the division in politics of left vs right is is realigning on "globalist" (high education, high income) vs "natavist" (low education, low income) lines.
So basically where the left is represented by a Clinton or Macron the right can pick up the traditional vote the left used to get on class conflict grounds. But an internationalist/globalist left represented by a corbyn type stance that focuses on redistribution of wealth and class conflict can actually buck the trend.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2018.pdf
On immigration, being pro migrant is a point of principle for the internationalist left. Any positive or negative effects are a bonus or drag. Cameron managed to get enough fo their votes. Their social conservatism and shopkeeper thatcherism make them prime targets for the conservative party. Although I imagine such liberal toryism is basically communism for you.
If the right really wanted to and could get over its racism, migrant communities are a great source for conservative votes.
In some cases I sgree- nationalists and conservatives have a lot more in common with religious minorities than labour. And this works to an extent among some - the East Asians in particular.
But here’s a story why generally that’s not the case.
At work I had a Nigerian friend who was a clever guy who had studied economics, he was s hardcore capitalist who loved Hayek and Mises, loved thatcher and Churchill and thought socialism of any kind led to much Venezuela. So ideal Tory voter. But here’s the thing- he voted labour every time it came to general elections. Why? Because to paraphrase/ labour have him more money to send back to Africa in benefits, where he planned on going home at some point. Why should he care what happened to the U.K.?
Now this guy was a good worker, he paid taxes and didn’t commit crime - in some ways he was a model immigrant but the fact that he was exploiting the country (st least in his head) I think is very indicative of the state of immigration.
And no, it’s not just this one single story but many others as well as hard facts.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Vacuum for what?
Vacuum for what?
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#10
Britain has a Zionist Occupation Government lead by Lizard May. If she were to be replaced, we would start to see British politics once more instead of Rothschild Zionist Globalist politics.
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#11
(Original post by Davij038)
Leadership to get us out if this rut
Leadership to get us out if this rut
The two main parties cover pretty much the bulk of what the British people want. Anything else is pretty niche.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
What vacuum in policy exists though?
The two main parties cover pretty much the bulk of what the British people want. Anything else is pretty niche.
What vacuum in policy exists though?
The two main parties cover pretty much the bulk of what the British people want. Anything else is pretty niche.
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#13
(Original post by Davij038)
Nope there is a big market for a economically left wing and socially Conservative party, I’ve read at least three mainstream studies showing this
Nope there is a big market for a economically left wing and socially Conservative party, I’ve read at least three mainstream studies showing this
UKIP are/were the closest thing we got to that (and they were incredibly mild relative to your own views are). They're an absolute joke of a party with very little support.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
What evidence do you have that there is a significantly large enough market for a socially Conservative party to thrive?
UKIP are/were the closest thing we got to that (and they were incredibly mild relative to your own views are). They're an absolute joke of a party with very little support.
What evidence do you have that there is a significantly large enough market for a socially Conservative party to thrive?
UKIP are/were the closest thing we got to that (and they were incredibly mild relative to your own views are). They're an absolute joke of a party with very little support.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-populists#amp
Yes UKIP are a bunch of idiots but they are unfortunately for the alt right are the best we have in our current paradigm and will help shift it right - look at how popular Italy’s League Party is becoming! The biggest barrier is Britain’s FPTP system, iirc ukip would have gotten 60 seats under PR- this might explain why the left seem to have abandoned electoral reform 😂
I’m hoping that Ukip will have a moment like the Alternative for Germany Where the Thatcherite element is taken over by ardent Nationalists who actually have popular economic views
To be fair to ukip they do have some good policies- but more importantly they are committed to genuine free speech. Wheras the other parties are clamping down on it, as all dying empires start to do. Although Britain is in a dire state I have faith that A soloution can be found.
Last edited by Davij038; 2 years ago
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#15
(Original post by Davij038)
Heres one article about it, I remember seeing others too but cba to fine them.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-populists#amp
Yes UKIP are a bunch of idiots but they are unfortunately for the alt right are the best we have in our current paradigm and will help shift it right - look at how popular Italy’s League Party is becoming! The biggest barrier is Britain’s FPTP system, iirc ukip would have gotten 60 seats under PR- this might explain why the left seem to have abandoned electoral reform 😂
I’m hoping that Ukip will have a moment like the Alternative for Germany Where the Thatcherite element is taken over by ardent Nationalists who actually have popular economic views
To be fair to ukip they do have some good policies- but more importantly they are committed to genuine free speech. Wheras the other parties are clamping down on it, as all dying empires start to do. Although Britain is in a dire state I have faith that A soloution can be found.
Heres one article about it, I remember seeing others too but cba to fine them.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-populists#amp
Yes UKIP are a bunch of idiots but they are unfortunately for the alt right are the best we have in our current paradigm and will help shift it right - look at how popular Italy’s League Party is becoming! The biggest barrier is Britain’s FPTP system, iirc ukip would have gotten 60 seats under PR- this might explain why the left seem to have abandoned electoral reform 😂
I’m hoping that Ukip will have a moment like the Alternative for Germany Where the Thatcherite element is taken over by ardent Nationalists who actually have popular economic views
To be fair to ukip they do have some good policies- but more importantly they are committed to genuine free speech. Wheras the other parties are clamping down on it, as all dying empires start to do. Although Britain is in a dire state I have faith that A soloution can be found.
Generally speaking most people aren't much more socially conservative than the Conservative Party. Look at issues such as gay marriage, where approximately 80% of the population are in support of it.
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#16
It's a good summary. Labour would probably be the best option (even though I disagree with high taxes), people like Jeremy Corbyn/George Galloway/Paul Embery are very inspiring and genuinely put the people of the country first which is rare in politics.
But they need to drop their obsession with identity politics, deselect their fifth column MPs working against the party and dissociate themselves with the thuggish hope not hate wing.
But they need to drop their obsession with identity politics, deselect their fifth column MPs working against the party and dissociate themselves with the thuggish hope not hate wing.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
That article isn't supporting what you're saying. Authoritarian Populism =/= Strong Social Conservatism. Being anti immigration isn't to say you're socially conservative either. If they are the same then you already have the party you're looking for: the Conservative Party (which, according to the article, is where most of the authoritarian right to go anyway).
Generally speaking most people aren't much more socially conservative than the Conservative Party. Look at issues such as gay marriage, where approximately 80% of the population are in support of it.
That article isn't supporting what you're saying. Authoritarian Populism =/= Strong Social Conservatism. Being anti immigration isn't to say you're socially conservative either. If they are the same then you already have the party you're looking for: the Conservative Party (which, according to the article, is where most of the authoritarian right to go anyway).
Generally speaking most people aren't much more socially conservative than the Conservative Party. Look at issues such as gay marriage, where approximately 80% of the population are in support of it.
Populist authoritarianism is almost always inherently socially conservative. Being socially conservative and anti immigration is the case the vast majority of the time.
They go there because it is the least bad option. This is why many socialist libertarians still voted for Blair’s Labour despite it being neither socialist or libertarian. The conservatives are far from populist and are very much oppppsed to social conservstism aside from a few back benchers.
Public opinion isn’t set in stone. Brazil was very tolerant if lgbt people and it recently elected Bolsonaro who said he’d rather his children die than become gay.
The country as it stands now is a giant house of cards. All it needs is a little push (brexit/ no brexit/ a Corbyn government) and we’ll see how keen people really are of the liberal order (which is doomed regardless )
Last edited by Davij038; 2 years ago
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#18
(Original post by Davij038)
Populist authoritarianism is almost always inherently socially conservative. Being socially conservative and anti immigration is the case the vast majority of the time.
They go there because it is the least bad option. This is why many socialist libertarians still voted for Blair’s Labour despite it being neither socialist or libertarian. The conservatives are far from populist and are very much oppppsed to social conservstism aside from a few back benchers.
Public opinion isn’t set in stone. Brazil was very tolerant if lgbt people and it recently elected Bolsonaro who said he’d rather his children die than become gay.
The country as it stands now is a giant house of cards. All it needs is a little push (brexit/ no brexit/ a Corbyn government) and we’ll see how keen people really are of the liberal order (which is doomed regardless )
Populist authoritarianism is almost always inherently socially conservative. Being socially conservative and anti immigration is the case the vast majority of the time.
They go there because it is the least bad option. This is why many socialist libertarians still voted for Blair’s Labour despite it being neither socialist or libertarian. The conservatives are far from populist and are very much oppppsed to social conservstism aside from a few back benchers.
Public opinion isn’t set in stone. Brazil was very tolerant if lgbt people and it recently elected Bolsonaro who said he’d rather his children die than become gay.
The country as it stands now is a giant house of cards. All it needs is a little push (brexit/ no brexit/ a Corbyn government) and we’ll see how keen people really are of the liberal order (which is doomed regardless )
If people wanted a hardline socially conservative party they'd either create one or join existing ones. They've had the opportunity to do so either with UKIP or the BNP. In either of those cases neither party got very far because a majority of the electorate are either not socially conservative enough or simply do not care enough about it to want to vote for either (or have other matters, like economic policy, which they prefer from other parties).
Brazil was never superly LGBT friendly, at least not to the extent as the UK, even before they elected Bolsonaro.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
If people wanted a hardline socially conservative party they'd either create one or join existing ones. They've had the opportunity to do so either with UKIP or the BNP. In either of those cases neither party got very far because a majority of the electorate are either not socially conservative enough or simply do not care enough about it to want to vote for either (or have other matters, like economic policy, which they prefer from other parties).
If people wanted a hardline socially conservative party they'd either create one or join existing ones. They've had the opportunity to do so either with UKIP or the BNP. In either of those cases neither party got very far because a majority of the electorate are either not socially conservative enough or simply do not care enough about it to want to vote for either (or have other matters, like economic policy, which they prefer from other parties).
The problem is the lack of oppportinity and also a very hostile media and establishment. The conservatives bought 2015 by offering the referendum otherwise ukip would have done very well. And then you had the brexit results plus the 2017 results. If ukip or the bnp had a shot of winning a seat, a lot of people would vote for them to stop labour or even the Tories gaining the seat.
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#20
Couldnt agree more.
Davin Cameron wasnt great but were crying out for even average atm
Davin Cameron wasnt great but were crying out for even average atm
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