Rail fares to rise by 3.1% in January Watch

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DSutch
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Ambitious1999)
I agree, but with nearly all stations having ticket barriers, fare dodging has decreased a lot. So much that rail companies just aren’t getting the income from penalty fares and fines. So they target people who have made genuine mistakes, the standard class ticket holder who enters first class, the passenger who missed their stop etc. Unlike other authorities the railways have their own rules written in law and any form of “Fare Dodging” is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE. People who make genuine mistakes risk being dragged through magistrates and even crown courts getting criminal records etc.

With a criminal conviction a person is not allowed to work with children, not allowed to work in healthcare, not allowed to adopt, face high car insurance, and life insurance premiums, not allowed to travel to USA or Australia. (Fare evasion being a crime of moral turpitude even though fare evasion is not actually a criminal offence in the USA or most other countries).

Being caught making a genuine mistake and getting done for fare evasion can quite literally ruin your life.
Not buying a ticket is not a mistake. Signs for First Class are clear (though I think there should only be First Class on long-distance services). If you paid for only half your groceries you would be called a thief, and not paying for travel is just the same.
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CoolCavy
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#62
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#62
(Original post by xoxAngel_Kxox)
If they were reliable and pleasant I wouldn't mind paying, but often they're late or cancelled, overcrowded, smelly, far too hot, and we have to pay a huge amount for the privilege.
Current scenes from the train today... Was sat in the luggage rack
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I wouldn't mind if it was cheap but it's not
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quasa
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#63
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#63
(Original post by It's****ingWOODY)
It's crazy, but at this rate it'll soon be cheaper to get a taxi across the country than it will a train.
as it is, it is cheaper to get a year-long pre-payment certificate than to get 1 item on a prescription per menth
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StriderHort
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Ambitious1999)
I agree, but with nearly all stations having ticket barriers, fare dodging has decreased a lot. So much that rail companies just aren’t getting the income from penalty fares and fines. So they target people who have made genuine mistakes, the standard class ticket holder who enters first class, the passenger who missed their stop etc. Unlike other authorities the railways have their own rules written in law and any form of “Fare Dodging” is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE. People who make genuine mistakes risk being dragged through magistrates and even crown courts getting criminal records etc.

With a criminal conviction a person is not allowed to work with children, not allowed to work in healthcare, not allowed to adopt, face high car insurance, and life insurance premiums, not allowed to travel to USA or Australia. (Fare evasion being a crime of moral turpitude even though fare evasion is not actually a criminal offence in the USA or most other countries).

Being caught making a genuine mistake and getting done for fare evasion can quite literally ruin your life.
I feel this is all an exaggeration, not a total lie, but you've way overblown it.

Out of my several dozen local stations, I know of 3 with barriers, the city centre ones. (fair enough, the subway stops do have them, different service though)

I'n 20 odd years of use and probably dozens of minor ticket errors, I have never once been fined or otherwise threatened. I know a few people who have been fined, but not a single one who has been prosecuted.

A conviction for 'fare doging' disqualifies you from NONE of these things, it may change some processes, but it doesnt bar you from anything. My record is hell of a lot worse than faredodoging and I'm allowed to work with kids just fine, drive a car, travel ect.

So, no, I feel making a genuine mistake with your train fare cannot literally 'ruin your life'
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Johnny English
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#65
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#65
I wouldn't pay it . I would either drive or look for another job . My maximum tolerable distance for commuting is no more than 10 miles .I hate it . I don't see the point in paying more than £4000 for a motor either.....I get mine from the auctions and run them into the ground . Cheapest way wins for me.....top marque vehicles are so ridiculous it amazes me why people buy them . My vehicles have over 300,000 miles
Last edited by Johnny English; 1 month ago
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#66
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#66
Ban union strikes on such vital public services. End of story.

Entire network is a joke - not worth the high prices they seem to command.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#67
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#67
(Original post by CoolCavy)
Current scenes from the train today... Was sat in the luggage rack
Name:  IMG_20181201_111107424.jpg
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I wouldn't mind if it was cheap but it's not

Pretty sure we'll all be in cattle cars paying £1000 a person soon lol
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Tiger Rag
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#68
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#68
What exactly is the justification for such an increase? I catch the train most weeks. I can't remember the last time my train was on time. Including last week and the week before where I missed my connections. According to Virgin Trains, I'm given plenty of time to catch my connection. Yes, if my train doesn't leave 5 minutes late...

(and I'm always left waiting in Bristol where it's always bloody cold!)
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nexttime
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#69
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I'm all for unions they do a valuable job... but everything in moderation right? How on earth have we ended up with a situation where train drivers, a job that could be done by a child (or a 1987 computer if we go by DLR), ear more than consultant doctors, or approaching twice as much as the average solicitor.

Honestly? Fire them all and go driverless. Definitely an option on a number of routes.

(Original post by DSilva)
We should follow the rest of Europe and have a nationalised rail service which provides a far higher quality and cheaper service to the customers, with much higher levels of customer satisfaction.

It's nothing to do with trade unions. And you're seemingly trying to argue that paying train drivers a decent amount is unreasonable.
Paying train drivers £75k, much lower paid workers ar having to pay through their nose to fund that wage, is unreasonable yes.

In Germany in 2015 they had a strike and the final agreement was that train drivers would be paid between £24k and £36k.

Wages are about 25% of your train ticket cost, so if we made like Europe and halved wages we'd expect a 12-15% drop in fares.

If that's the kind of nationalisation you're talking about then I'm all for!
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InnerTemple
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#70
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#70
(Original post by nexttime)
I'm all for unions they do a valuable job... but everything in moderation right? How on earth have we ended up with a situation where train drivers, a job that could be done by a child (or a 1987 computer if we go by DLR), ear more than consultant doctors, or approaching twice as much as the average solicitor.

Honestly? Fire them all and go driverless. Definitely an option on a number of routes.
Still get strikes on the DLR. Trains might go driverless, but you’ll still have some sort of human element involved.
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jameswhughes
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#71
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
Still get strikes on the DLR. Trains might go driverless, but you’ll still have some sort of human element involved.
The DLR isn't set up with the latest technology, so it still requires a staff member.

There are loads of examples of fully automatic trains on metro systems around the world though that are completely safe, e.g. in Barcelona, Dubai, Taipei, Hong Kong etc.

We should definitely push for more automation to improve reliability here, shame about the unions getting in the way.
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DSilva
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#72
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#72
(Original post by nexttime)
I'm all for unions they do a valuable job... but everything in moderation right? How on earth have we ended up with a situation where train drivers, a job that could be done by a child (or a 1987 computer if we go by DLR), ear more than consultant doctors, or approaching twice as much as the average solicitor.

Honestly? Fire them all and go driverless. Definitely an option on a number of routes.



Paying train drivers £75k, much lower paid workers ar having to pay through their nose to fund that wage, is unreasonable yes.

In Germany in 2015 they had a strike and the final agreement was that train drivers would be paid between £24k and £36k.

Wages are about 25% of your train ticket cost, so if we made like Europe and halved wages we'd expect a 12-15% drop in fares.

If that's the kind of nationalisation you're talking about then I'm all for!
It's perfectly possible to pay drivers well and have cheaper tickets.
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nexttime
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#73
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(Original post by DSilva)
It's perfectly possible to pay drivers well and have cheaper tickets.
Or you can pay drivers more reasonably and have even cheaper tickets.

I just established - halve wages and you've saved every train user >12%. I don't see why you want poorer people who need the train to get by to support train drivers who now earn 3x the national average? Are you a train driver or sth?!
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DSilva
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#74
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#74
(Original post by nexttime)
Or you can pay drivers more reasonably and have even cheaper tickets.

I just established - halve wages and you've saved every train user >12%. I don't see why you want poorer people who need the train to get by to support train drivers who now earn 3x the national average? Are you a train driver or sth?!
Our extortionate ticket prices and poor service are not a result of paying drivers. Our entire rail network is sub standard and needs changing. The rest of Europe manages to provide a far cheaper and more reliable nationalised service. There's no reason we cannot do the same.

Also the average salary of a train driver is nowhere near 75k.
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jameswhughes
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#75
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(Original post by DSilva)
Our extortionate ticket prices and poor service are not a result of paying drivers. Our entire rail network is sub standard and needs changing. The rest of Europe manages to provide a far cheaper and more reliable nationalised service. There's no reason we cannot do the same.

Also the average salary of a train driver is nowhere near 75k.
The money has to come from somewhere. Who should make up the difference? Taxpayers?
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Airmed
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#76
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#76
ugh. This is getting ridiculous now
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DSilva
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#77
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#77
(Original post by jameswhughes)
The money has to come from somewhere. Who should make up the difference? Taxpayers?
I've said we should have a nationalised system like other European countries who are able to offer not only a cheaper service but a much more reliable one with higher levels of customer satisfaction.
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nexttime
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#78
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(Original post by DSilva)
The rest of Europe manages to provide a far cheaper and more reliable nationalised service. There's no reason we cannot do the same.
Yes, and a significant part of why they are cheaper is they pay their staff, in particular their drivers, less! Less than half in the case of Germany! 12% saving, as mentioned!

Where do you think European rail lines save money/increase efficiency? And don't just pass off the issue as "nationalisation". Its because they save money on wages!

Also the average salary of a train driver is nowhere near 75k.
The terms agreed by Southern rail in 2017 were that drivers would get £60k for a 4 day week, or £75k if they do an optional extra day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...gger-overtime/

Other networks can be less, but are still ~£50k starting salary. That's both objectively ridiculous, and not what Europe does.
Last edited by nexttime; 1 month ago
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Quixote.
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#79
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We have one of the worst rail networks of any modern country i've ever been to. My friends from Japan joke that it's like riding an exhibit at a railway museum. I spend part of the year in Japan every year and the comparison is laughable. Other East Asian countries, including China, and many European countries are also miles ahead.

In the past year i've returned to my hometown five times from the city I currently live in, and three of those times i've had a replacement bus service. An incredibly expensive replacement bus service. I've been looking at trains today to return for Christmas and again there was a warning that a handful of trains are being cancelled daily "until further notice"... 7 or 8 today if I remember rightly just in this end of the country.

Tickets are insanely priced for the service provided. Most trains are old, dirty and slow. They're often late. On busy lines there are many cases where you can't get a seat, which is *******s when you're paying like £50 for a 2 hour journey that you could probably do by Megabus for a fiver. There's never enough carriages to meet demand on busy lines, which isn't right on lines that are known to oversell daily.

I think the worst thing is that it's a service that just can't be relied upon. When i'm in Japan I can plan a journey with confidence literally down to the minute. But when travelling here, to the airport for an early morning flight for example, I often opt to travel the night before and stay in a hotel, because if I have to catch one of the first two trains of the day in order to make my flight, I just can't guarantee that something won't go wrong. It does roughly half of the time.

I honestly despise the UK's rail network. Seeing how other countries are able to provide a functioning, affordable rail service, the incompetence and inconvenience of ours angers me so much. Like some other services in this country, it's an embarrassment.
Last edited by Quixote.; 1 month ago
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jameswhughes
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#80
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(Original post by DSilva)
I've said we should have a nationalised system like other European countries who are able to offer not only a cheaper service but a much more reliable one with higher levels of customer satisfaction.
Yes, because they have much greater taxpayer funding. Nationalisation isn’t some magic wand that makes the costs of running the railway disappear, the money has to come for either the tickets or the taxpayers.
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