MPharm- is it worth it- from a community locum pharmacist

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adiooyo
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#1
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#1
Hi Guys,

This post is aimed at pharmacy students and A level students considering studying Pharmacy!

A bit of background about myself, i started my degree in 2011 and therefore was a alevel student in 2009-11. Back then I was looking at degree courses and was doing research and found myself on tsr (i had a different user name- forgot my password lol)

During my A levels I could NOT find a single post which was discrediting pharmacy as a degree on this website and therefore thought Pharmacy was a fantastic degree with good job prospects. Most posts on pharmacy boasted about great career prospects and pay!

Now in 2018 (almost 19) things have changed upside down as I am sure you are aware- many posts here, many pharmacists are telling students not to start- there are simply too many pharmacists too many degree courses. 3000 new students study pharmacy each year meaning around 12000 altogether years 1-4 across the uk and only about 11000 pharmacies- some of which are on the brink of closure. In addition some unis offer a 2 plus 2 course. Study 2 years in Malaysia and then come here to finish. someone starting the degree this year by the time you qualify as a pharmacist (5 years assuming no resits and you get a pre reg place straight away) there will have been approximately 15000 qualified pharmacist by the time you qualify. (yes some will fail / resit / leave the course ) figure maybe slightly lower lets say 12000 there are only around 11000 pharmacies maybe 12000. many of these have pharmacists employed, how many jobs are available for you, you need to ask yourself this.

As a locum let me tell you- when i first qualified and locumming for lloyds standard rate was £21. I then took a employed position and then went back to locumming a few months ago- standard rate is now £19 £2p/h drop in 2 years. not 20 years 2 years!!! and I am not in a overly staurated area e.g. london birmingham

Yes there are other avenues e.g. hospital industry etc but nowhere near enough. You cant get a hospital pre reg you can kiss goodbye to hospital pharmacy and therefore a rewarding career- if you do manage to get one- well done a rewarding career awaits- beware you are competing with 3000 students for about 700 places(IF you are flexible with the location of hospital)

People think Independant prescribing is the way forward- you need to be 2 years qualified before you can even apply for a course.

My advice to a level students thinking about applying- DO NOT. You will struggle to find work consider dentisty medicine, if you cant get in please look into optometry- much better pay and likelyhood to get a job. you wont find more than one pharmacist per pharmacy but you will find 3-4 optoms per optician.

To those studying the course. During my time at university I became severely depressed reading these forums. Waking up and breathing for 16 hours was hard knowing that pharmacy was dying as a profession. I was thinking everyday for about 2.5 years (when i found out career progression was worsening). I wanted to quit but was too far in and I had pressure from family to complete the course. It was a terrible experience. If any student feels the same PM me. But the best advice i can give to students feeling this way if you run a 10km race and are 8.5 km in you might as well finish it, no point in stopping. its better to become qualified than wast 2-3 years of studying, despite jobs being hard to come by etc, get yourself a degree and qualified then take from there consider generic grad schemes.

My experiences of community pharmacy- horrid and grim in most shops. Staff morale is low, many companies are trying to replace staff with a robot off site.
Staff will undermine you especially if you are young. The way things are going staff i.e. dispensers are becoming managers and therefore there are many clashes with pharmacists- who are supposed to be in charge. Staff can make work life grim. Many staff are pissed that your are half there age and double the pay. they wont tell you this but will behave in a manner which suggests this! This isn't in all shops- some shops are a pleasure to work in, but too many shops are abysmal. Many newly qualified start as reliefs or locums and you will have to work in the grim shops as the nice ones have regular pharmacists in there! Pay is going down due to saturation, work pressure is going up because the multiple know that you can be replaced in a heart beat!!

My future plans- I am looking at setting up a businesss which has no relation to my degree / profession and I will either stop being a Pharmacist or work very few hours in the week as a pharmacist.

Again, if you are a A-level student reconsider it will lead to misery. If you want to do med/ dent DO NOT use pharmacy as a 5th choice in case things dont pan out it will lead to misery ( i didn't do this but a freind did).

I am dissapointed with my choice of degree. just over 2 years qualified and am looking to leave the proffesion, and I am not the only one of my age. Many fellow pharmacists of a similar age feel the same. I haven't got a hidden agenda- I simply don't want other young people to be lied to and misled into a degree e.g. by universities or career advisers, which will only cause disappointment, sadness, depression and regret as it did to me!

Just my own experience, other qualified pharmacists MAY feel different but this is my own personal experience.
Last edited by adiooyo; 2 years ago
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adiooyo
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#2
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#2
(Original post by Vinny C)
I feel they should all be told to exercise more and eat less. Cures cancer, diabetes and rheumatism but very non pc.
Just avoid eating dhaal coz you'll end up loving cows
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0895
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#3
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#3
Totally agree with everything this person says. (been in pharmacy better part of 30yrs)
I would add that there is nothing wrong with the degree itself, it's interesting, it's just the job at the end of it, and that's if you can find one, and find one with decent pay.
A survey out the other day said the average pharmacist earns £36k pa. The manager of your local Aldi earns more than that and might not even have done a degree!
There are easier, less stressful ways to earn 30-ish K a year!
(Also I think the OP means 15,000 not 1500!)
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Claremont4ever
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#4
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#4
Pharmacy is what you make of it. I'm NQ and currently on £50,000/year working 45 hours/week. I chose not to listen to the doom and gloom about pharmacy years before I started pharmacy school, the doom and gloom stories continued whilst in pharmacy school and even when I entered the register. It's always the same group of 'experienced' negative-minded pharmacists who have made it their sole intent in life to discourage as many young people from pursuing a rewarding career. When I qualified 2 months ago, I was inundated with offers from major chains. So, I really don't understand these stories about difficulty in finding work. My colleagues even got offers prior to undergoing their pre reg assessment.

There is so much negativity in pharmacy from people who should know better that I have come to the sad conclusion that the problem with pharmacy is pharmacists.
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adiooyo
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#5
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#5
(Original post by Izzy2016)
Pharmacy is what you make of it. I'm NQ and currently on £50,000/year working 45 hours/week. I chose not to listen to the doom and gloom about pharmacy years before I started pharmacy school, the doom and gloom stories continued whilst in pharmacy school and even when I entered the register. It's always the same group of 'experienced' negative-minded pharmacists who have made it their sole intent in life to discourage as many young people from pursuing a rewarding career. When I qualified 2 months ago, I was inundated with offers from major chains. So, I really don't understand these stories about difficulty in finding work. My colleagues even got offers prior to undergoing their pre reg assessment.There is so much negativity in pharmacy from people who should know better that I have come to the sad conclusion that the problem with pharmacy is pharmacists.
HiFirst of all congratulations on qualifying. I am happy that you are happy with your choice of profession.Just note that not everyone is happy I.e. myself and the other poster on this page. I want students to know what my experiences were and what my university friends experiences were and they can make a decision from thereAgain congrats on qualifying and wish you continued success in your career!
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tcameron
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#6
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#6
I'm a current year 3 pharmacy student who mainly wants to do hospital pharmacy. My sister has been a qualified pharmacist for 4 years, she does hospital and locums in community twice a week and seems to really enjoy her job and says she even prefers to locum because the pay is higher than in hospital. It's really what you make of it and which company you work for I guess because she's had bad locums at disorganised organisations but where she locums now she really likes.
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0895
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#7
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#7
It would be interesting to know what area of the country you are in Izzy? Most NQPs are on no-where near 50k a year.
You're obviously very lucky and an exception.
Around here NQPs are on 25/26k.
There is an article in this week's Chemist and Druggist mag with average locum rates around the UK. Lowest being £16 in N.I.
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Claremont4ever
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#8
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(Original post by 0895)
It would be interesting to know what area of the country you are in Izzy? Most NQPs are on no-where near 50k a year.
You're obviously very lucky and an exception.
Around here NQPs are on 25/26k.
There is an article in this week's Chemist and Druggist mag with average locum rates around the UK. Lowest being £16 in N.I.
North East. I locummed a few shifts in the NE before my current job, my locum rates were £25-£30/hour. However, the North East isn't a sexy place to live in, which explains why a lot of pharmacists are down south. My basic pay is just over £46,000 for 45 hours per week, however, I get a guaranteed £8000 retention bonus extra if I'm still with company after 2 years. This takes my annual pay above £50,000/year excluding annual bonus etc.

My point is, if you are flexible in relocation, there are areas of the country that pay pharmacists very well. There is absolutely no need for all the negativity and moaning I see on social media. If any pharmacists feel that pharmacy isn't the career he/she initially thought it was, go do something else. Life is too short to constantly dwell on negativity and bringing everyone around you down with you.
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0895
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Izzy2016)
North East. I locummed a few shifts in the NE before my current job, my locum rates were £25-£30/hour. However, the North East isn't a sexy place to live in, which explains why a lot of pharmacists are down south. My basic pay is just over £46,000 for 45 hours per week, however, I get a guaranteed £8000 retention bonus extra if I'm still with company after 2 years. This takes my annual pay above £50,000/year excluding annual bonus etc.

My point is, if you are flexible in relocation, there are areas of the country that pay pharmacists very well. There is absolutely no need for all the negativity and moaning I see on social media. If any pharmacists feel that pharmacy isn't the career he/she initially thought it was, go do something else. Life is too short to constantly dwell on negativity and bringing everyone around you down with you.
Thank you for your reply on location.
Yes, there are areas that pay well, but if you were a GP, for example, you would get excellent rates if you worked in Newcastle or Northampton. I think the OP is trying to say that the work on offer is high stress, low pay where they are, and a huge workload compared to pharmacy in the UK, say 25 yrs ago, even 10-15 years ago. That's my opinion, the last bit.
As for all the negativity, I don't do twitter, Facebook, etc so I can't comment on that, but personally I think you should be able to qualify and get a good rate in your local town or city, after A levels and a 5 yr training course. I don't think being offered £18 an hour in a lot of UK towns is a reflection of the effort that has gone into your studying, and the daily grind in a pharmacy. You may disagree obviously.
Personally I feel the Unis have ruined pharmacy by taking in too many students, we don't need 3000 graduates a year. And then after that, the multiples ruin your working life by being able to impose any working conditions on you, knowing, as a colleague mentioned to me, that "if you don't want to do it, we'll find someone else who will!"
That's just my opinion. but I'm pleased that pharmacy has worked out for you.
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Claremont4ever
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#10
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#10
(Original post by 0895)
Thank you for your reply on location.
Yes, there are areas that pay well, but if you were a GP, for example, you would get excellent rates if you worked in Newcastle or Northampton. I think the OP is trying to say that the work on offer is high stress, low pay where they are, and a huge workload compared to pharmacy in the UK, say 25 yrs ago, even 10-15 years ago. That's my opinion, the last bit.
As for all the negativity, I don't do twitter, Facebook, etc so I can't comment on that, but personally I think you should be able to qualify and get a good rate in your local town or city, after A levels and a 5 yr training course. I don't think being offered £18 an hour in a lot of UK towns is a reflection of the effort that has gone into your studying, and the daily grind in a pharmacy. You may disagree obviously.
Personally I feel the Unis have ruined pharmacy by taking in too many students, we don't need 3000 graduates a year. And then after that, the multiples ruin your working life by being able to impose any working conditions on you, knowing, as a colleague mentioned to me, that "if you don't want to do it, we'll find someone else who will!"
That's just my opinion. but I'm pleased that pharmacy has worked out for you.
£18/hour 45 hours a week, will earn a newly qualified pharmacist just over £42,000/year. This is a decent wage for a new graduate, and it's way more than what foundation doctors and graduates in other fields earn. A hardworking newly qualified on £42,000 who is prepared to put in the overtime hours can easily gross above £50,000/year if overtime and bonuses are factored in.

I have always said that pharmacy isn't for everyone, some people are better off going back to study medicine, etc. However, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Foundation doctors pay is circa £33,000/year, a newly qualified GP basic pay is about £57,000 for a 37.5 hour week. If pay is the sole motivation for the dissatisfaction I see amongst some pharmacists, doctors on comparable experience do not necessarily earn better.
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marinade
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#11
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#11
(Original post by 0895)
It would be interesting to know what area of the country you are in Izzy? Most NQPs are on no-where near 50k a year.
You're obviously very lucky and an exception.
Around here NQPs are on 25/26k.
There is an article in this week's Chemist and Druggist mag with average locum rates around the UK. Lowest being £16 in N.I.
One of my previous managers at another company got £45k two years after qualifying. Not sure what they got when they qualified and can't verify that but i was told £40k. They were lucky and worked for a much more generous company (although the company they went on to work for paid them even more). Here company NQPs are spot on what you say and the managers are earning mid £30ks.
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marinade
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Izzy2016)
£18/hour 45 hours a week, will earn a newly qualified pharmacist just over £42,000/year. This is a decent wage for a new graduate, and it's way more than what foundation doctors and graduates in other fields earn. A hardworking newly qualified on £42,000 who is prepared to put in the overtime hours can easily gross above £50,000/year if overtime and bonuses are factored in.
Agree with that very much. However pretty much around £42k is the average that all pharmacists earn according to the ONS. I think from memory that from job codes that includes the super high grade and high earning pharmacists in hospitals as well.

(Original post by Izzy2016)
I have always said that pharmacy isn't for everyone, some people are better off going back to study medicine, etc. However, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Foundation doctors pay is circa £33,000/year, a newly qualified GP basic pay is about £57,000 for a 37.5 hour week. If pay is the sole motivation for the dissatisfaction I see amongst some pharmacists, doctors on comparable experience do not necessarily earn better.
I don't think it's primarily about money at all, but that's my two pence worth.
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Claremont4ever
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#13
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#13
NHS starting salaries:
Nurse £23.0k
Paramedic £23.0k
Midwife £23.0k
Junior doctor £27.1k
Radiographer £23.0k
Healthcare assistant £17.5k
Physiotherapist £23.0k
Dietician £23.0k
Occupational therapist £23.0k
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marinade
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Izzy2016)
NHS starting salaries:
Nurse £23.0k
Paramedic £23.0k
Midwife £23.0k
Junior doctor £27.1k
Radiographer £23.0k
Healthcare assistant £17.5k
Physiotherapist £23.0k
Dietician £23.0k
Occupational therapist £23.0k
Yebbut no but yebbut not but some people regard them as riffraff (apart from the doctor) and they don't have a master's degree innit.

Seriously, I've not bothered looking on there for pharmacy, but if people want to have a look at NQP data then look at LEO which most famously is displayed on https://unistats.ac.uk . Be warned though, very depressing reading almost whatever degree you do!

I would actually pick even lower earners to compare a pharmacist to.
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sachinisgod
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Izzy2016)
North East. I locummed a few shifts in the NE before my current job, my locum rates were £25-£30/hour. However, the North East isn't a sexy place to live in, which explains why a lot of pharmacists are down south. My basic pay is just over £46,000 for 45 hours per week, however, I get a guaranteed £8000 retention bonus extra if I'm still with company after 2 years. This takes my annual pay above £50,000/year excluding annual bonus etc.

My point is, if you are flexible in relocation, there are areas of the country that pay pharmacists very well. There is absolutely no need for all the negativity and moaning I see on social media. If any pharmacists feel that pharmacy isn't the career he/she initially thought it was, go do something else. Life is too short to constantly dwell on negativity and bringing everyone around you down with you.
You do realise the rates of pay you are talking about usually are offered only in less desirable place such as North East and Hull etc for example. True the locum rates might be slightly higher and the annual salary maybe be 15/20% more than compared to the bigger cities but the fundamental point you are not addressing is that of a glass ceiling for progression in community.

True- NQs will earn from anywhere between 30-45K as a full time pharmacist with long hours (45-50 hours) but what you dont mention is that a community pharmacist may never earn more than £50K (unless they are area managers) for the duration of their careers and thats a very optimistic figure ( we all know with the oversupply of pharmacists and lack of gov funding means that figure will likely drop) In contrast yes a Jun Doc might earn £23K but they have the ability to top it up by doing locum shifts and also as they progress their careers will go on to earn much more significantly than pharmacists. Plus this is a more rewarding career for them unlike pharmacists who's daily ritual is facing customer complaints over silly things.

Adding to your last point- yes we are seeing a number of pharmacists who are getting delusional and leaving the profession. I myself did not do my pre reg and went into a corporate grad scheme. A lot of pharmacists dont know that the consulting firms are always looking out for qualified pharmacists to join their healthcare teams.
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Claremont4ever
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#16
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#16
(Original post by sachinisgod)
You do realise the rates of pay you are talking about usually are offered only in less desirable place such as North East and Hull etc for example. True the locum rates might be slightly higher and the annual salary maybe be 15/20% more than compared to the bigger cities but the fundamental point you are not addressing is that of a glass ceiling for progression in community.
There are pharmacists in the community that have started their careers as relief pharmacists and they are now area managers, some of them have even merged their community pharmacy roles with prescribing, teaching and academic research. If you continue to use the glass ceiling excuse as a reason for not developing yourself, do not blame anyone but yourself for your lack of career progression. Personally, even though I just qualified last month, i have already registered for a part time MSc in Clinical Pharmacy that also incorporates independent prescribing quals. I know where I want my career to head towards, and I'm committed to gaining the skills needed to get there.

(Original post by sachinisgod)
True- NQs will earn from anywhere between 30-45K as a full time pharmacist with long hours (45-50 hours) but what you dont mention is that a community pharmacist may never earn more than £50K (unless they are area managers) for the duration of their careers and thats a very optimistic figure ( we all know with the oversupply of pharmacists and lack of gov funding means that figure will likely drop) In contrast yes a Jun Doc might earn £23K but they have the ability to top it up by doing locum shifts and also as they progress their careers will go on to earn much more significantly than pharmacists. Plus this is a more rewarding career for them unlike pharmacists who's daily ritual is facing customer complaints over silly things.
My pre reg tutor was on £65,000/year, and this excludes annual bonus and overtime. I'm currently on £50,000/year as NQ doing 45 hours/week, and I fully intend doing 60 hours at least once a month which will take me to £55,000-£60,000/year excluding annual bonus. I think this argument has shifted towards money too much, the fact is that regardless of how much you make, there is always someone making more than you.

(Original post by sachinisgod)
Adding to your last point- yes we are seeing a number of pharmacists who are getting delusional and leaving the profession. I myself did not do my pre reg and went into a corporate grad scheme. A lot of pharmacists dont know that the consulting firms are always looking out for qualified pharmacists to join their healthcare teams.
You didn't do your pre reg and the qualifying exam. You are not a pharmacist.
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Doones
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#17
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#17
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sachinisgod
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Izzy2016)
There are pharmacists in the community that have started their careers as relief pharmacists and they are now area managers, some of them have even merged their community pharmacy roles with prescribing, teaching and academic research. If you continue to use the glass ceiling excuse as a reason for not developing yourself, do not blame anyone but yourself for your lack of career progression. Personally, even though I just qualified last month, i have already registered for a part time MSc in Clinical Pharmacy that also incorporates independent prescribing quals. I know where I want my career to head towards, and I'm committed to gaining the skills needed to get there.



My pre reg tutor was on £65,000/year, and this excludes annual bonus and overtime. I'm currently on £50,000/year as NQ doing 45 hours/week, and I fully intend doing 60 hours at least once a month which will take me to £55,000-£60,000/year excluding annual bonus. I think this argument has shifted towards money too much, the fact is that regardless of how much you make, there is always someone making more than you.



You didn't do your pre reg and the qualifying exam. You are not a pharmacist.
Please direct me to where I claimed I was a registered pharmacist? I have done an MPharm and a few summer intern roles in community and hospitals, so what I say is not pure hypotheticals.

Apart from that if you are happy with the role and pay you are on then kudos to you and the very best for your future. However there is a harsh reality we must face up to and that is a vast majority in the profession are disillusioned with the pay, progression and working conditions. (not everyone wants to work 60 hours/week like yourself)
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marinade
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Izzy2016)
There are pharmacists in the community that have started their careers as relief pharmacists and they are now area managers, some of them have even merged their community pharmacy roles with prescribing, teaching and academic research. If you continue to use the glass ceiling excuse as a reason for not developing yourself, do not blame anyone but yourself for your lack of career progression. Personally, even though I just qualified last month, i have already registered for a part time MSc in Clinical Pharmacy that also incorporates independent prescribing quals. I know where I want my career to head towards, and I'm committed to gaining the skills needed to get there.
Ah yes, the tesco argument. It's true that some will end up as regional managers, but not many. It's not really much more relevant talking about the opportunities of being a regional manager than it is for a shelf stacker in tesco, aldi or whatever. The only difference is if someone makes it as a superintendent quickly there's one fewer rungs to get up.

Pharmacy has fantastic pay for a standard undergraduate science course without the need to do the whole tesco thing.

Good you are doing an MSc as there's a lot of moaning about having done 'enough' years studying and 'gone to uni' in pharmacy.
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0895
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#20
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#20
Who would want to work 60 hours a week in a community pharmacy and do a part-time post grad as well?!? I admire your energy Izzy!! You do seem rather obsessed with money though. I know a lot of pharmacists who are switching to 4 day weeks as Community is just too much to do for 5 days, for the bog standard Joe Bloggs pharmacist. I'm sure you will manage 5 or 6 days though!

Yes, there are some excellent jobs and pay rates out there, but the OP was, I think, talking about community in general and statistically two-thirds of pharmacy grads will work in community, (probably for a chain) with lots of stress, and rubbish money compared to what pay used to be.

If pay in community had continued to rise with inflation (since 2008 when rates started to be capped), then the average pharmacist would be on over 50k pa. now, not 36k as quoted the other day in C&D.
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