UKIP falling apart . Watch

Johnny English
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 1 year ago
#1
Nigel Farage and now Paul Nuttall gone . Many are blaming the appointment of Tommy Robinson as an adviser to the party . There are also claims that the party is being infiltrated by ex BNP members .
If true , I can't see any way back from this . The party will no longer be a vI able alternative to the mainstream parties. A shame in many ways.
0
reply
_YoungMetro
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#2
Report 1 year ago
#2
I'm not sure I'd call it a shame
6
reply
Dez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#3
Report 1 year ago
#3
UKIP has always been full of racist twits. Farage had enough charisma to put a respectable face on it all, the party is dead in the water without him.
7
reply
Drewski
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4
Report 1 year ago
#4
(Original post by Johnny English)
The party will no longer be a vI able alternative to the mainstream parties.
It never was.
5
reply
the bear
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#5
Report 1 year ago
#5
say it ain't so

:emo:

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...t-bus.jpg?w968
0
reply
That'sGreat
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6
Report 1 year ago
#6
You can't join UKIP if you have been a BNP member. And UKIP has already disintegrated - after the referendum, specifically after Farage left, leaving UKIP without an ounce of charisma or credibility.
2
reply
Johnny English
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#7
Report Thread starter 1 year ago
#7
(Original post by Drewski)
It never was.
It was more popular than the liberals ...mind you so was flu. It also led us to the big Brexit debate and you only have to turn the TV on to see how popular that is .....
That said , now Farage has spurned his baby , then I fear its finished .
0
reply
Drewski
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#8
Report 1 year ago
#8
(Original post by Johnny English)
It was more popular than the liberals
So? They weren't a viable alternative either.
Last edited by Drewski; 1 year ago
0
reply
Johnny English
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#9
Report Thread starter 1 year ago
#9
(Original post by Drewski)
So? They weren't a viable alternative either.
Its a matter of opinion. Many in the shires and North of the country voted UKIP as a protest against inmigration. That was it's main focus along with Brexit . We're still waiting for it to be delivered .
0
reply
generallee
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#10
Report 1 year ago
#10
You need to see the big picture here.

The political system is essentially broken, and has been for some time. For ten, maybe twenty years a significant proportion of the voting population has been opposed to our membership of the European Union. It has gone up and down over the years, at some times being a majority, others not.

The legacy political parties did not represent this democratically. A minority of the Parliamentrary Tory Party wanted to leave, a handful of Labour MP's, that was it. A massive democratic deficit arose, and thse who were not represented got more and more angry and frustrated.

Along comes a ragbag, stickey back plastic party called UKIP. It had a lot of oddballs within it, it was excoriated by the other parties and the mainstream media, its supporters were laughed at and/or insulted. Cameron called them "a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists." But under a charismatic
leader (later described by the very same Cameron as one of the most gifted politicians of his generation) this party won the most seats in the European Elections. This ought not to have been surprising, (considering how half the country was being disenfanchised on this, the most important question of our time) but it really did surprise people. Then they started to win massive by elections, and you know the rest.

UKIP as was, is history. But we are witnessing a complete reforming of the party system, we are right in the middle of it. It is impossible to say what will happen, but a Tory split seems inevitable, and a Labour split more than likely. If the party system is going to reflect the country we can't continue with 80% of MP's being Remainers when half the country or more are Leavers.

If we continue as we are, with first past the post, and the Tory/Labour dichotomy democracy will become totally discredited because of this democratic deficit. I can't foresee in what way the current failed model gets reformed, but the pressure is going to become irresistible. Look to France to see what happens when a political system doesn't represent the people.

There is a huge opportunity for a party on the populist right. UKIP isn't that party, but don't bet on a new one emerging. Nature abhors a vacuum.

(EDIT: And right on cue it appears that Farage has formed a new party, to be unveiled on Monday. How many Tory MP's will join it if the Remainers overturn Brexit (for the moment it won't be the end of this though they foolishly think so) which looks more and more likely?
Last edited by generallee; 1 year ago
3
reply
nulli tertius
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#11
Report 1 year ago
#11
(Original post by generallee)
You need to see the big picture here.

The political system is essentially broken, and has been for some time. For ten, maybe twenty years a significant proportion of the voting population has been opposed to our membership of the European Union. It has gone up and down over the years, at some times being a majority, others not.

The legacy political parties did not represent this democratically. A minority of the Parliamentrary Tory Party wanted to leave, a handful of Labour MP's, that was it. A massive democratic deficit arose, and thse who were not represented got more and more angry and frustrated.

Along comes a ragbag, stickey back plastic party called UKIP. It had a lot of oddballs within it, it was excoriated by the other parties and the mainstream media, its supporters were laughed at and/or insulted. Cameron called them "a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists." But under a charismatic
leader (later described by the very same Cameron as one of the most gifted politicians of his generation) this party won the most seats in the European Elections. This ought not to have been surprising, (considering how half the country was being disenfanchised on this, the most important question of our time) but it really did surprise people. Then they started to win massive by elections, and you know the rest.

UKIP as was, is history. But we are witnessing a complete reforming of the party system, we are right in the middle of it. It is impossible to say what will happen, but a Tory split seems inevitable, and a Labour split more than likely. If the party system is going to reflect the country we can't continue with 80% of MP's being Remainers when half the country or more are Leavers.

If we continue as we are, with first past the post, and the Tory/Labour dichotomy democracy will become totally discredited because of this democratic deficit. I can't foresee in what way the current failed model gets reformed, but the pressure is going to become irresistible. Look to France to see what happens when a political system doesn't represent the people.

There is a huge opportunity for a party on the populist right. UKIP isn't that party, but don't bet on a new one emerging. Nature abhors a vacuum.

(EDIT: And right on cue it appears that Farage has formed a new party, to be unveiled on Monday. How many Tory MP's will join it if the Remainers overturn Brexit (for the moment it won't be the end of this though they foolishly think so) which looks more and more likely?
It is a view and it is a possible one but I think it is fundamentally wrong in two respects.

The first is why has Farage lost? It is because he was all mouth and no trousers. He was expecting Cameron or the Civil Service or the tooth fairy to find a way of bringing about Brexit. I don't mean the minutiae that is clearly for the Civil Service. Attlee and Bevan knew how to create an NHS without the medical profession revolting. Thatcher and Joseph knew how to move industries into the private sector without making a present of them to cronies a la Yeltsin. There never has been a blueprint for bringing about Brexit in a sensible manner. Brexit has been captured by the radical economic right who want to destroy the present foundations of the economy and society but that isn't where Farage came from.

A sane Brexit would have involved never giving the Article 50 notice and calling the EU's bluff on two things which have no foundation in the EU Treaties; that the terms of Brexit couldn't be discussed until the Article 50 notice was given and that our future relationship with Europe couldn't be discussed until we had left. If the EU had cut up rough over this, Farage should have dumped a bust of Charles Stuart Parnell on the Taoiseach's desk. He would have understood.

Secondly, I think the populist right has had its moment in the sun in the UK and what you are going to see is an establishment fightback. Neo-Nazis are beiing taken seriously and not treated as a joke as can be seen from the recent arrests. The Electoral Commission rules will be beefed up not only over campaign finance but over evidenced-based politics. The sides of campaign buses are going to come with small print. There will be people who rail that their inarticulate ramblings are not being represented but those ramblings are going to be kept well away from polluting the democratic process and if the persons concerned get out of line they will feel the weight of an active state. The State moved quickly to close down politics on the early wireless and has been rather slower to close down mischievous internet activity. The Cyber Nats should have been warning. What you will find is that contact between politicians and unauthorised political propaganda or approbation of such propaganda becomes disqualifying. Ordinary people will be able to comment below the line in newspapers and on TSR but as soon as there is any connection between that an organised political activity, the politician will be slung out unless the politician takes legal responsibility for it.
1
reply
DrMikeHuntHertz
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#12
Report 1 year ago
#12
Hitchens a while back said only one of the two major parties has to fall for both to fail, Farage threw a spanner in the works and has now made this inevitable, every British subject owes him a debt of gratitude.

Also for those dancing on UKIP's grave, if it isn't quickly replaced with an alternative by Farage, you'll see BNP 2.0.
1
reply
DSilva
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#13
Report 1 year ago
#13
(Original post by generallee)
You need to see the big picture here.

The political system is essentially broken, and has been for some time. For ten, maybe twenty years a significant proportion of the voting population has been opposed to our membership of the European Union. It has gone up and down over the years, at some times being a majority, others not.

The legacy political parties did not represent this democratically. A minority of the Parliamentrary Tory Party wanted to leave, a handful of Labour MP's, that was it. A massive democratic deficit arose, and thse who were not represented got more and more angry and frustrated.

Along comes a ragbag, stickey back plastic party called UKIP. It had a lot of oddballs within it, it was excoriated by the other parties and the mainstream media, its supporters were laughed at and/or insulted. Cameron called them "a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists." But under a charismatic
leader (later described by the very same Cameron as one of the most gifted politicians of his generation) this party won the most seats in the European Elections. This ought not to have been surprising, (considering how half the country was being disenfanchised on this, the most important question of our time) but it really did surprise people. Then they started to win massive by elections, and you know the rest.

UKIP as was, is history. But we are witnessing a complete reforming of the party system, we are right in the middle of it. It is impossible to say what will happen, but a Tory split seems inevitable, and a Labour split more than likely. If the party system is going to reflect the country we can't continue with 80% of MP's being Remainers when half the country or more are Leavers.

If we continue as we are, with first past the post, and the Tory/Labour dichotomy democracy will become totally discredited because of this democratic deficit. I can't foresee in what way the current failed model gets reformed, but the pressure is going to become irresistible. Look to France to see what happens when a political system doesn't represent the people.

There is a huge opportunity for a party on the populist right. UKIP isn't that party, but don't bet on a new one emerging. Nature abhors a vacuum.

(EDIT: And right on cue it appears that Farage has formed a new party, to be unveiled on Monday. How many Tory MP's will join it if the Remainers overturn Brexit (for the moment it won't be the end of this though they foolishly think so) which looks more and more likely?
I don't disagree with that, just I feel FPTP is going to continue to shut out 3rd parties, especially in England.

What's your opinion on Farage's coming out against Tommy Robinson?
0
reply
ByEeek
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#14
Report 1 year ago
#14
(Original post by Johnny English)
Its a matter of opinion. Many in the shires and North of the country voted UKIP as a protest against inmigration. That was it's main focus along with Brexit . We're still waiting for it to be delivered .
Out of fear. The interesting statistic is that areas with low or no immigration voted in fear where as areas of high immigration aren't fearful of immigrants and see the positives of it all. It is almost like if you actually meet an immigrant face to face, they turn out not to be evil monsters trying to take your wife and kids from you.

I can't help feeling that the argument has moved on in two years. Now it is the EU that has been painted as the evil monster under the bed. You know - that evil monster that gave use clear beaches, human rights, cheaper overseas phone calls, airline compensation, a right to privacy and data protection and more besides. I can't think of one good thing our own government has done for us in the last 10 years.
0
reply
Davij038
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#15
Report 1 year ago
#15
(Original post by ByEeek)
The interesting statistic is that areas with low or no immigration voted in fear where as areas of high immigration aren't fearful of immigrants and see the positives of it all. It is almost like if you actually meet an immigrant face to face, they turn out not to be evil monsters trying to take your wife and kids from you.
Or it could be that people moved to majority non white areas when they’re areas became more ‘diverse’. AKA white flight.
0
reply
Johnny English
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#16
Report Thread starter 1 year ago
#16
(Original post by ByEeek)
Out of fear. The interesting statistic is that areas with low or no immigration voted in fear where as areas of high immigration aren't fearful of immigrants and see the positives of it all. It is almost like if you actually meet an immigrant face to face, they turn out not to be evil monsters trying to take your wife and kids from you.

I can't help feeling that the argument has moved on in two years. Now it is the EU that has been painted as the evil monster under the bed. You know - that evil monster that gave use clear beaches, human rights, cheaper overseas phone calls, airline compensation, a right to privacy and data protection and more besides. I can't think of one good thing our own government has done for us in the last 10 years.
No ....you can't assume it was out of fear .
Some would prefer for the British way of life to be preserved and not become some anonymous outpost of the third world . The evil monster you describe could be a suit able analogy of the murder and knife crime stats for London and some of our other crime riddled cities where most of these immigrants live . I certainly don't remember kids walking around my neighbourhood with knives and imitating the Rasta accent whilet being in a gang . Infact it doesn't exist in the rural north still thank god . You are more than welcome to this neighbourhood if you like it . I don't. ..it sickens me .
0
reply
Rakas21
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#17
Report 1 year ago
#17
(Original post by Johnny English)
Nigel Farage and now Paul Nuttall gone . Many are blaming the appointment of Tommy Robinson as an adviser to the party . There are also claims that the party is being infiltrated by ex BNP members .
If true , I can't see any way back from this . The party will no longer be a vI able alternative to the mainstream parties. A shame in many ways.
The party died in 2015 when it polled 12% of the vote. In the 2013 and 2014 council and euro elections where it polled ~20-25% and depressed both the Lab-Con vote shares there was a real possibility that had they kept on to 2015 there might have been a chance to either force a merger for survival or push one of the other two parties out.

What we actually saw in 2015 though (and moreso in 2015) is that Kipper voters (even when they had come from Lab) are essentially just disenfranchised Tories of some form (even if they mistrust what they see as an establishment, elitist party). This was further confirmed in the 2017 and 2018 council elections when all those 2013 and 2014 councillors who have had a chance to impress were thrown out on their ass.

Ukip will not do as badly as some of you say (there is a larger constituency for the kind of rehetoric that Batten and Robbinson put out there, especially since Ukip is more respectable than say the BNP or EDL) which is why they are averaging ~5% of the vote but they will never seriously challenge the main parties. Their only real hope is a hanfdul of targetted seats and Lords.
(Original post by ByEeek)
Out of fear. The interesting statistic is that areas with low or no immigration voted in fear where as areas of high immigration aren't fearful of immigrants and see the positives of it all. It is almost like if you actually meet an immigrant face to face, they turn out not to be evil monsters trying to take your wife and kids from you.

I can't help feeling that the argument has moved on in two years. Now it is the EU that has been painted as the evil monster under the bed. You know - that evil monster that gave use clear beaches, human rights, cheaper overseas phone calls, airline compensation, a right to privacy and data protection and more besides. I can't think of one good thing our own government has done for us in the last 10 years.
This is much more common or rurality as a line of thinking. I have lived in West Yorkshire most of my life and more recently Birkenshaw and Scholes during the 2010-2015 parliament. I can assure you now that the people of Batley and Spen (18% kipper vote in 2015 with over 9000 votes) and Bradford South (~30% of the 2015 kipper vote) did not vote for the kippers out of some idylic fear, they voted because 5 miles to the west is the utterly shambolic foreign city of Bradford.

No white person living in and around the area looks upon Bradford and wishes to celebrate diversity. They look upon Bradford and its ilk (other places like Batley and Dewsbury are not far off) and despair at what the political class have allowed to happen.

Now i agree that the EU has got some of the blame (the issue in those places is Muslims rather than eastern Europeans) but for many (not so much i although i did understand why people like my parents placed that vote) the vote to leave the EU was a proxy vote against cultural diversity and deprivation (Bradford is so horrid as a city that it had falling house prices in 2017).

Round these parts i would certainly expect another significant vote to Leave if the vote was betrayed again because none of the peoples concerns are being adressed by any party given that the Tories cannot see beyond March 29th right now and Labour would be more likely to have Ukip voters arrested for racism than tackle the fact that they are allowing Bradford and the like to become a Muslim city.
Last edited by Rakas21; 1 year ago
1
reply
Izzyeviel
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#18
Report 1 year ago
#18
(Original post by generallee)
You need to see the big picture here.

The political system is essentially broken, and has been for some time. For ten, maybe twenty years a significant proportion of the voting population has been opposed to our membership of the European Union. It has gone up and down over the years, at some times being a majority, others not.

The legacy political parties did not represent this democratically. A minority of the Parliamentrary Tory Party wanted to leave, a handful of Labour MP's, that was it. A massive democratic deficit arose, and thse who were not represented got more and more angry and frustrated.
Your entire argument is complete *******s. We know this because there is such a thing called 'election results' and all sorts of opinion poll/survey data. For most of the 2000's the EU wasn't even a top ten agenda. It was only when UKIP went full anti-muslim that they became vaguely relevant.
0
reply
Davij038
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#19
Report 1 year ago
#19
It’s a good thing. Nigel has ultimately proven himself a cuck that when push comes to shove- he sides with people like Owen Jones and buying into this false narrative that Robinson is the new Mosley. He’s turned himself into the Paul Ryan of UKIP..

I need to explain terms again here. Liberal media are either ignorantly or deliberately confusing ‘liberalists’/ Alt lite with the Alt Right. That is they are confusing classical liberals -and civic nationalists with neo Nazis and white nationalists. ..

But back to the main point.i believe this is a good strategy for UKIP. Farage couldn’t even get elected as an MP and they were on most issues in line with the conservatives. In order to stand out ukip needs to be a more radical populist party as well as attract young voters not slowly dying off Thatcherite baby boomers. Even though some of the views of Paul Joseph Watson are daft they are far more relevant than Farages.

I think Battens strategy will pay off in the long run.
0
reply
ByEeek
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#20
Report 1 year ago
#20
(Original post by Johnny English)
No ....you can't assume it was out of fear .
Some would prefer for the British way of life to be preserved and not become some anonymous outpost of the third world .
I think this sentence demonstrates a perceived fear perfectly. You fear that immigration will send us back to the third would. The reality however is that we are financially richer for immigration. And I do not see British people shunning pizzas, pasta, kebabs, curry, ice cream in favour of stew and dumplings. Nor do I see British people shunning Turkish baths / barbers, car washs, nail bars, hotels and restaurants. And I don't hear British people calling for immigrant doctors and nurses that prop up our health service to be forcibly removed. We even have a German queen ffs!

So what is this British way of life you talk about? I only ask because every aspect of the British way of life that I think is amazing (and there is lot of good stuff in this country) has been invented, inspired by or created as the result of immigration in one way or another. I would suggest that even the most racist amongst us are more cosmopolitan than they care to admit.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How many uni open days have you been to/did you go to?

0 (71)
28.51%
1 (40)
16.06%
2 (40)
16.06%
3 (35)
14.06%
4 (17)
6.83%
5 (20)
8.03%
6 (6)
2.41%
7+ (20)
8.03%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise