Discuss: Muslim Violence Is About Generic Criminality, Not Religion Watch

muthalganesan18
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The violent events that have been happening throughout Western Europe and the Commonwealth Realms are nothing to do with Islamic ideology, but rather they are a side effect of the poverty and consequent criminality that is commonplace among the locally born generation of people from Muslim families. I equate them to the criminality that affects Black Americans in the United States. The majority of criminal events caused by Muslims are mostly second generation - hence the negative stereotype about latter generation Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK.

This is why the problem is more peculiar to Europe/Canada/Australia than to the United States. The US historically adopted a very Islamophobic stance in response to 911, and consequently it prevented many Muslims from immigrating to the United States - creating a filter which by only a certain type of Muslim could get in. While Muslim Americans suffer from poverty too (I think Bangladeshi Americans have a 20% poverty rate and ghettos, all Muslims are poorer than any South Asian ethnic group), they tend to be more docile and successful than Non-American Western Muslims due to the immigration racism in the US.

I think it's wrong to treat this issue as a religious issue. It's about socioeconomics and consequent criminality - these people have easy access to weapons from being part of the illegal drug trade, human traffiking etc... and therefore they are able to carry out events like this more easily. We should group these attack in with the other problems that affect Muslims (pedophile gangs, knife crime, gang violence...) and deal with it in the same way we would deal with any other violence-realted issue among an ethnic group.
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JTharma
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Well in the US they don’t take in as many unskilled workers apart from Latin America so most Muslims are those working in professional, managerial or semi-skilled work. Those Muslims are usually more willing to integrate than unskilled workers. I think this holds true for every community, the more educated ones are usually more willing to integrate and not be criminals.
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Katcha1234
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1) Most of the terrorist and Muslims who traveled to Syria from Europe have come from middle class or even affluent and educated backgrounds. Most of them have not experienced personal grievance due to our involvement in the Middle East. 2) There's a direct link between Muslim violence and the doctrines of Martyrdom and Jihad. Christian Palestinians do not blow themselves up even though they suffer under the same political oppression by Israel.
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alrytlana
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(Original post by Katcha1234)
1) Most of the terrorist and Muslims who traveled to Syria from Europe have come from middle class or even affluent and educated backgrounds. Most of them have not experienced personal grievance due to our involvement in the Middle East. 2) There's a direct link between Muslim violence and the doctrines of Martyrdom and Jihad. Christian Palestinians do not blow themselves up even though they suffer under the same political oppression by Israel.
your last sentence does not make sense. Palestinian muslims dont blow themselves up, they get killed for defending themselves, i dont see why you had to differentiate both religions who are living under the same roof.
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akbar0123
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For a non-Muslim you are OBSESSED with Muslims lol
Did a Muslim guy take your girl or something 😂
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Rudeboi 4 life
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(Original post by akbar0123)
For a non-Muslim you are OBSESSED with Muslims lol
Did a Muslim guy take your girl or something 😂
That would be haram. Giving her his harami salami before marriage is forbidden. You of all people should know that, Akbar.:sigh:
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Tenya Iida
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(Original post by Katcha1234)
1) Most of the terrorist and Muslims who traveled to Syria from Europe have come from middle class or even affluent and educated backgrounds. Most of them have not experienced personal grievance due to our involvement in the Middle East. 2) There's a direct link between Muslim violence and the doctrines of Martyrdom and Jihad. Christian Palestinians do not blow themselves up even though they suffer under the same political oppression by Israel.
hey, religious studies gcse kid here! (if any muslims are following this thread, im an atheist with a bad memory, feel free to correct me if what im saying is incorrect), i am literally dropping my focus in an epq lesson to tell you this, but it takes a quick google search for you to know 'jihad' isnt a term with one meaning, and it doesnt mean 'terrorism'!!

like i said, awful memory, so i did have to look at a few articles to jog it. the greater jihad means to improve yourself in the way of islam (like quitting smoking, etc!)

the lesser jihad is the struggle against an open enemy. that open enemy is not the goverment or your fellow citizens. again, im currently in a lesson, so ill leave it to a quote from here as a better explanation.

'Instead, the Koran permits Muslims to fight in this lesser jihad when five strict conditions are met: self-defense; when they are being persecuted for their faith; have fled their homes and migrated to a different country to preserve peace; are targeted to be killed for their faith; and to protect universal religious freedom. Indeed, the Koran 22:41 specifically commands Muslims to engage in this lesser jihad to protect “Churches, Synagogues, Temples, and Mosques” from attack. And even when fighting in self-defense in these strict conditions, the Koran 2:194, among other places, mandates that Muslims immediately forgive if the attacker stops: “And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for God. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.” And yet again the Koran repeatedly condemns creating any sort of violent disorder or rebellion against any faith or government: “And create not disorder in the earth after it has been set in order” (7:57) and likewise, “defraud not people of their things and commit not iniquity in the earth, causing disorder” (11:86).'

extremists and islamaphobes distort this term. please dont forget its meaning!
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by JTharma)
Well in the US they don’t take in as many unskilled workers apart from Latin America so most Muslims are those working in professional, managerial or semi-skilled work. Those Muslims are usually more willing to integrate than unskilled workers. I think this holds true for every community, the more educated ones are usually more willing to integrate and not be criminals.
It's a fallacy that Muslim Americans are actually successful. It's mostly whitewashing by the media. Indians and Sri Lankans earn more than White Americans, Pakistanis and Banlgadeshis LESS. There are Muslim ghettos and I think something like 20% of Bangladeshis live in poverty - I think Pakistanis were the most deported ethnicity after 911.
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by alrytlana)
your last sentence does not make sense. Palestinian muslims dont blow themselves up, they get killed for defending themselves, i dont see why you had to differentiate both religions who are living under the same roof.
What are Palestinians defending themselves against?
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by Katcha1234)
1) Most of the terrorist and Muslims who traveled to Syria from Europe have come from middle class or even affluent and educated backgrounds. Most of them have not experienced personal grievance due to our involvement in the Middle East. 2) There's a direct link between Muslim violence and the doctrines of Martyrdom and Jihad. Christian Palestinians do not blow themselves up even though they suffer under the same political oppression by Israel.
I don't actually think much of this is religious or theological though. The reason why those who go overseas a disproportionately from middle class families is maybe due to the cost of getting to Syria. We already know that the Muslim community, and I mean second generation from Muslim families here, suffers from a lot of non-religious issues like knife crime, poverty, etc... and I can't see why the idea that these sporadic acts of mass murder are done due to the close links between the Muslim community and the criminal underworld - a lot of these people have close links with the drugs trade and much of the gangs are also Muslim.
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Trinculo
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This has been going on for years with many different forms of terrorism - and its largely government who can't make up their minds whether terrorists are "just" criminals or not.

We used to think that it was better that terrorists were simply criminals- certainly with the IRA, the narrative was to paint them as ordinary criminals, to take away any kind of political justification. With Islamic terror, it seems to have gone the other way, where government and "opponents" rush to label it terror, and "supporters" complain that the terrorist label is used.

Personally, unless there is an actual difference in sentenceing (like there is in Spain, which has higher tariffs for terrorism) I don't see what difference it makes, and I'd agree that to an extent calling people terrorists gives some credence or justification to their actions.
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by Trinculo)
This has been going on for years with many different forms of terrorism - and its largely government who can't make up their minds whether terrorists are "just" criminals or not.

We used to think that it was better that terrorists were simply criminals- certainly with the IRA, the narrative was to paint them as ordinary criminals, to take away any kind of political justification. With Islamic terror, it seems to have gone the other way, where government and "opponents" rush to label it terror, and "supporters" complain that the terrorist label is used.

Personally, unless there is an actual difference in sentenceing (like there is in Spain, which has higher tariffs for terrorism) I don't see what difference it makes, and I'd agree that to an extent calling people terrorists gives some credence or justification to their actions.
They could also be lashing out against perceived racism. Just like how the Yellow Jackets are lashing out against the French state - I believe some of the worst riots in French history a few years back were by Muslims that mimicked the traditional French inferior class style of rioting - basically the lower class lashing out against the monarchy. Whether that perceived racism is something unique to the Muslims is another matter (many races complain about racism, many groups live in poverty, so why should Muslims get any help?).
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Trinculo
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(Original post by muthalganesan18)
They could also be lashing out against perceived racism. Just like how the Yellow Jackets are lashing out against the French state - I believe some of the worst riots in French history a few years back were by Muslims that mimicked the traditional French inferior class style of rioting - basically the lower class lashing out against the monarchy. Whether that perceived racism is something unique to the Muslims is another matter (many races complain about racism, many groups live in poverty, so why should Muslims get any help?).
This is what I'm saying - it doesn't matter if it's a reaction to racism or not -you either label it terrorism or you don't, and either way, I don't see what difference it makes. You still did the crimes.
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Trinculo
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This is how this manifests itself lately.

Muslim person runs someone over on purpose. A lot of people rush to call this terrorism on the basis that it is becoming a more common occurrence, and it's not an unreasonable position to take. Immediately, the left rush to say that it should not be called terrorism as it is not yet known if it is terrorism.

The flip side of this is - some non-Muslim person runs over a Muslim on purpose. Immediately the left demand that this is labelled terrorism because that is what would happen with a Muslim perpetrator.

There is some merit to all sides here - but my take is - who cares? Who cares whether a particular incident is labelled terrorism or not? The victims got run over, and whether it was by a racist or a terrorist or a criminal doesn't really make any difference. The person is no less dead and the whole thing no less bad.
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JTharma
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(Original post by muthalganesan18)
It's a fallacy that Muslim Americans are actually successful. It's mostly whitewashing by the media. Indians and Sri Lankans earn more than White Americans, Pakistanis and Banlgadeshis LESS. There are Muslim ghettos and I think something like 20% of Bangladeshis live in poverty - I think Pakistanis were the most deported ethnicity after 911.
Pakistani Americans actually earn roughly about the US average. Most Muslim Americans tend to be more liberal and middle class than those in Europe and they get along pretty well with other communities. There’s less segregation, apart from suburban Detroit and Paterson NJ there aren’t really any big Muslim communities, they tend to be quite well assimilated. The US’ biggest problems come from African American communities and some Latin Americans.

Also the terror problem is mostly in Europe. Neither Canada or Australia have had any major terror attacks and the crime rates overall there are pretty low.
Last edited by JTharma; 6 months ago
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by JTharma)
Pakistani Americans actually earn roughly about the US average. Most Muslim Americans tend to be more liberal and middle class than those in Europe and they get along pretty well with other communities. There’s less segregation, apart from suburban Detroit and Paterson NJ there aren’t really any big Muslim communities, they tend to be quite well assimilated. The US’ biggest problems come from African American communities and some Latin Americans.

Also the terror problem is mostly in Europe. Neither Canada or Australia have had any major terror attacks and the crime rates overall there are pretty low.
Pakistani Americans earn less that White Americans, while Indians and Sri Lankans earn more. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis still suffer from ghettos and poverty in the US, regardless of how you want to whitewash it. Also, there are far less Muslims in the US compared to Canada/Europe where they get more hate.
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akbar0123
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(Original post by muthalganesan18)
Pakistani Americans earn less that White Americans, while Indians and Sri Lankans earn more. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis still suffer from ghettos and poverty in the US, regardless of how you want to whitewash it. Also, there are far less Muslims in the US compared to Canada/Europe where they get more hate.
You seem to imply that income = success but that’s not the case. If a person does a job they enjoy and makes a good contribution to the society they live in then they’re far more successful than some banker or trader sitting at a desk pushing button all day who ends up making £1 million a year. Perhaps Pakistanis just go for higher paying jobs but instead go for things like nursing, social work, instead of banking or corporate law or accounting
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JTharma
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(Original post by muthalganesan18)
Pakistani Americans earn less that White Americans, while Indians and Sri Lankans earn more. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis still suffer from ghettos and poverty in the US, regardless of how you want to whitewash it. Also, there are far less Muslims in the US compared to Canada/Europe where they get more hate.
I think it’s best o just see people as individuals rather than groups. There are rich Muslims and poor Muslims, educated ones and uneducated ones, just like Christians, Jews and everyone else and the vast majority of them no around causing crime or problems- it’s a minority of them that ruin it for everyone let’s face it. It’s ridiculous to be prejudiced towards a group just because on average they earn less or have different education levels. Treat people as individuals.
Last edited by JTharma; 5 months ago
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muthalganesan18
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(Original post by JTharma)
I think it’s best o just see people as individuals rather than groups. There are rich Muslims and poor Muslims, educated ones and uneducated ones, just like Christians, Jews and everyone else and the vast majority of them no around causing crime or problems- it’s a minority of them that ruin it for everyone let’s face it. It’s ridiculous to be prejudiced towards a group just because on average they earn less or have different education levels. Treat people as individuals.
But we aren't individuals. We have differences that make ethnic groups and races. Things like language, religion, skin color... play a role. You're idea of us all being one community is fantasy.
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