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Is it illegal to acknowledge a trans M2F as a man instead of a woman?
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Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
I see you used the template of "muh X" where X is an argument you disagree with but can't use logic to argue against.
Psychology and Neuroscience says that trans people feel as though and have been shown to have behaviours of the sex they feel as though they ought to be. What it doesn't say is whether they are the sex they say they are as the definition of sex is a biological one. What's up for debate here is whether everyone else should subscribe to what is ultimately a delusion.
You are right about one part, phenotypes (appearance for all of you less "woke" people) is what matters and I simply won't accept that a "woman" with stubble and highly pronounced jawline is an actual woman, even though he may feel as though he is one.
maybe one day science will advance enough for the transition to appear seemless but right now it is nowhere close.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Dandaman1
That's basically making it illegal to refer to men as women or vice versa. That's just moronic. It would be bloody dystopian to criminalise people simply for using the 'wrong' pronouns.
Police resources are already stretched (and poorly prioritised: see people being arrested for saying mean things online) and there are enough people in jail costing the prison service money.
Police resources are already stretched (and poorly prioritised: see people being arrested for saying mean things online) and there are enough people in jail costing the prison service money.
Yep the head of the Met recently said that Police should prioritise real crime instead of non-violent hate crime.
Original post by CollectiveSoul
great to see so many here standing up for science against the trendy liberal lefty fascists
Yep it's simply gone too far.
the thing about homosexuals is that in order to accept it, it requires very little suspension of disbelief, I still find it odd but then again there are a lot of odd preferences.
the thing about trans is that is requires you to completely suspend disbelief and think differently from what your eyes are seeing, very similar to the Orwellian concept of DoubleThink
Original post by e^iπ
Would this act be a punishable offence under current legislation that could result in a custodial sentence?
Original post by sammcc86
And what exactly determines phenotype.... genes..coded by your DNA...
Not necessarily. What's coded isn't necessarily what is expressed.
Original post by e^iπ
I see you used the template of "muh X" where X is an argument you disagree with but can't use logic to argue against.
Psychology and Neuroscience says that trans people feel as though and have been shown to have behaviours of the sex they feel as though they ought to be. What it doesn't say is whether they are the sex they say they are as the definition of sex is a biological one. What's up for debate here is whether everyone else should subscribe to what is ultimately a delusion.
You are right about one part, phenotypes (appearance for all of you less "woke" people) is what matters and I simply won't accept that a "woman" with stubble and highly pronounced jawline is an actual woman, even though he may feel as though he is one.
maybe one day science will advance enough for the transition to appear seemless but right now it is nowhere close.
Psychology and Neuroscience says that trans people feel as though and have been shown to have behaviours of the sex they feel as though they ought to be. What it doesn't say is whether they are the sex they say they are as the definition of sex is a biological one. What's up for debate here is whether everyone else should subscribe to what is ultimately a delusion.
You are right about one part, phenotypes (appearance for all of you less "woke" people) is what matters and I simply won't accept that a "woman" with stubble and highly pronounced jawline is an actual woman, even though he may feel as though he is one.
maybe one day science will advance enough for the transition to appear seemless but right now it is nowhere close.
using scientific language when discussing why someone's comment about science is wrong is being "woke". Also, no - neuroscience suggests brain structure more akin to their experienced gender than their assigned one (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/) - (as with everything in science, it's a bit more complicated than that. There's not distinct male and female brains, there's structural features that are more common in one or the other to create a continuum running masculine to feminine, where trans people sit closer to the other end than expected from their assigned gender)
Original post by thaliaevelyn
😂😂
Original post by e^iπ
You are right about one part, phenotypes (appearance for all of you less "woke" people) is what matters and I simply won't accept that a "woman" with stubble and highly pronounced jawline is an actual woman
It's perfectly possible (even common) for trans women to both take hormones to stop facial hair growth and get facial surgery to give them a more typically feminine facial shape.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers using scientific language when discussing why someone's comment about science is wrong is being "woke". Also, no - neuroscience suggests brain structure more akin to their experienced gender than their assigned one (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/) - (as with everything in science, it's a bit more complicated than that. There's not distinct male and female brains, there's structural features that are more common in one or the other to create a continuum running masculine to feminine, where trans people sit closer to the other end than expected from their assigned gender)
using scientific language when discussing why someone's comment about science is wrong is being "woke". Also, no - neuroscience suggests brain structure more akin to their experienced gender than their assigned one (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/) - (as with everything in science, it's a bit more complicated than that. There's not distinct male and female brains, there's structural features that are more common in one or the other to create a continuum running masculine to feminine, where trans people sit closer to the other end than expected from their assigned gender)Which is basically what I said...
Of course they feel like the sex they are, doesn't mean that are the sex they feel like. Sex is the identifier most people use as the definitionnof gender is superfluous and only recently are people realising this, but ultimately when someone sees another person as a woman, it's because they "look" like one (you mentioned this with "phenotypes")
What's up for debate here is whether everyone should be forced to subscribe to this belief. The definition of sex is
biological and if you are saying that gender is different from sex, I ask this question, how are they different? does gender just mean gender roles? How can someone feel as though they are a different gender without feeling they are a different sex?
But I totally respect that you believe in an alternate definition of gender, I just don't think everyone should be forced to subscribe to your definition with the threat of prosecution looming over one's head, hopefully you will be tolerant towards this thought I just explained and we will find a middle ground
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by anarchism101
It's perfectly possible (even common) for trans women to both take hormones to stop facial hair growth and get facial surgery to give them a more typically feminine facial shape.
Not really common... surgery costs a lot of money indeed and is not within the means of most people, the most your average trans person can do is wear drag.
No, simple answer.
If you then made derogatory remarks to them, it would be a hate crime. But why would you want to? Makes no difference to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
If you then made derogatory remarks to them, it would be a hate crime. But why would you want to? Makes no difference to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Original post by chronicalexa
No, simple answer.
If you then made derogatory remarks to them, it would be a hate crime. But why would you want to? Makes no difference to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
If you then made derogatory remarks to them, it would be a hate crime. But why would you want to? Makes no difference to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
makes no difference to me, so I can say whatever I want then,
Original post by e^iπ
makes no difference to me, so I can say whatever I want then,
I feel like you completely missed the point, but whatever
Original post by e^iπ
Which is basically what I said...
Of course they feel like the sex they are, doesn't mean that are the sex they feel like. Sex is the identifier most people use as the definitionnof gender is superfluous and only recently are people realising this, but ultimately when someone sees another person as a woman, it's because they "look" like one (you mentioned this with "phenotypes"
What's up for debate here is whether everyone should be forced to subscribe to this belief. The definition of sex is
biological and if you are saying that gender is different from sex, I ask this question, how are they different? does gender just mean gender roles? How can someone feel as though they are a different gender without feeling they are a different sex?
But I totally respect that you believe in an alternate definition of gender, I just don't think everyone should be forced to subscribe to your definition with the threat of prosecution looming over one's head, hopefully you will be tolerant towards this thought I just explained and we will find a middle ground
Of course they feel like the sex they are, doesn't mean that are the sex they feel like. Sex is the identifier most people use as the definitionnof gender is superfluous and only recently are people realising this, but ultimately when someone sees another person as a woman, it's because they "look" like one (you mentioned this with "phenotypes"
What's up for debate here is whether everyone should be forced to subscribe to this belief. The definition of sex is
biological and if you are saying that gender is different from sex, I ask this question, how are they different? does gender just mean gender roles? How can someone feel as though they are a different gender without feeling they are a different sex?
But I totally respect that you believe in an alternate definition of gender, I just don't think everyone should be forced to subscribe to your definition with the threat of prosecution looming over one's head, hopefully you will be tolerant towards this thought I just explained and we will find a middle ground
However they are their experienced gender, which is the point. Gender is, at it's simplest, your psychological sex (and the more research done into gender dysphoria, the more we see a biological component to it).
As for should other people be required to buy in - they should be required to address people correctly, or rather restricted from deliberately addressing them incorrectly. That's not "criminal offence if you call someone he and they say actually I use they/them pronouns", that's an innocent mistake - apologise and move on. What it is is considering repeatedly and deliberately misgendering someone (e.g. Having a trans man call themselves Keith and you insisting on referring to them as Lauren) as a form of harassment. Basically, don't be an obnoxious jackass towards someone specifically because they're trans, and you have no problems.
No it isn't, if a black person bleached their skin I wouldn't refer to them as white. (Not that I'd refer to them any differently, but I hope the point comes across).
Original post by e^iπ
Would this act be a punishable offence under current legislation that could result in a custodial sentence?
EDIT: I'm willing to bet £100 that this post will be removed due to "inciting bigotry and viokence" because some people have expressed their opinion that they will refer to a trans person as whatever they want, tells you a lot about the impartiality of the mods (well at least some of the more extremist ones)
EDIT: I'm willing to bet £100 that this post will be removed due to "inciting bigotry and viokence" because some people have expressed their opinion that they will refer to a trans person as whatever they want, tells you a lot about the impartiality of the mods (well at least some of the more extremist ones)
Why would you even do that?
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
However they are their experienced gender, which is the point. Gender is, at it's simplest, your psychological sex (and the more research done into gender dysphoria, the more we see a biological component to it).
As for should other people be required to buy in - they should be required to address people correctly, or rather restricted from deliberately addressing them incorrectly. That's not "criminal offence if you call someone he and they say actually I use they/them pronouns", that's an innocent mistake - apologise and move on. What it is is considering repeatedly and deliberately misgendering someone (e.g. Having a trans man call themselves Keith and you insisting on referring to them as Lauren) as a form of harassment. Basically, don't be an obnoxious jackass towards someone specifically because they're trans, and you have no problems.
As for should other people be required to buy in - they should be required to address people correctly, or rather restricted from deliberately addressing them incorrectly. That's not "criminal offence if you call someone he and they say actually I use they/them pronouns", that's an innocent mistake - apologise and move on. What it is is considering repeatedly and deliberately misgendering someone (e.g. Having a trans man call themselves Keith and you insisting on referring to them as Lauren) as a form of harassment. Basically, don't be an obnoxious jackass towards someone specifically because they're trans, and you have no problems.
Don't you think that's kind of aggravating for some (I say some and not all and I hope you respect the beliefs of some people just as I respect the beliefs of yours) people, being asked to block out any signals from their eyes and completely suspend disbelief?
Also you seem to be far more well versed in this subject so could you clearly and concisely. Please belive me when I say I am not trying to mock your beliefs but here it goes anyway. Do trans people ultimately want to have the exact same characterists and functions as the sex they want everyone to refer to them as?
Original post by e^iπ
Don't you think that's kind of aggravating for some (I say some and not all and I hope you respect the beliefs of some people just as I respect the beliefs of yours) people, being asked to block out any signals from their eyes and completely suspend disbelief?
I don't see that that comes into it. If I've got a mate called, say, Alex, and he says "guys, I'm going by my middle name (let's say, Rob) now", it's not a hard adjustment, you might get it wrong initially but you adjust, and continuing to call him Alex just makes you a ****. The same principle applies if instead Alex asks to be called Alice instead. I'm not expecting you to be able to guess perfectly every time, no-one is, everyone makes mistakes which fade away as you adjust. What people shouldn't do is be a bell and refuse to even try or make a point of referring to Alice as Alex even more.
Also you seem to be far more well versed in this subject so could you clearly and concisely. Please belive me when I say I am not trying to mock your beliefs but here it goes anyway. Do trans people ultimately want to have the exact same characterists and functions as the sex they want everyone to refer to them as?
Some do, some don't - they're individual people not a Borg collective. Some experience heavy body dysphoria and wish they had a functioning version of the reproductive system of their identified gender, some are more socially dysphoric (i.e. feel fundamentally uncomfortable with the world seeing them as something other than their identified gender) and aren't then fussed as much about their existing genitalia.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
I don't see that that comes into it. If I've got a mate called, say, Alex, and he says "guys, I'm going by my middle name (let's say, Rob) now", it's not a hard adjustment, you might get it wrong initially but you adjust, and continuing to call him Alex just makes you a ****. The same principle applies if instead Alex asks to be called Alice instead. I'm not expecting you to be able to guess perfectly every time, no-one is, everyone makes mistakes which fade away as you adjust. What people shouldn't do is be a bell and refuse to even try or make a point of referring to Alice as Alex even more.
Some do, some don't - they're individual people not a Borg collective. Some experience heavy body dysphoria and wish they had a functioning version of the reproductive system of their identified gender, some are more socially dysphoric (i.e. feel fundamentally uncomfortable with the world seeing them as something other than their identified gender) and aren't then fussed as much about their existing genitalia.
Some do, some don't - they're individual people not a Borg collective. Some experience heavy body dysphoria and wish they had a functioning version of the reproductive system of their identified gender, some are more socially dysphoric (i.e. feel fundamentally uncomfortable with the world seeing them as something other than their identified gender) and aren't then fussed as much about their existing genitalia.
sorry this is ridiculous. a name is just a label. a gender is a classification of one's nature.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
I don't see that that comes into it. If I've got a mate called, say, Alex, and he says "guys, I'm going by my middle name (let's say, Rob) now", it's not a hard adjustment, you might get it wrong initially but you adjust, and continuing to call him Alex just makes you a ****. The same principle applies if instead Alex asks to be called Alice instead. I'm not expecting you to be able to guess perfectly every time, no-one is, everyone makes mistakes which fade away as you adjust. What people shouldn't do is be a bell and refuse to even try or make a point of referring to Alice as Alex even more.
Some do, some don't - they're individual people not a Borg collective. Some experience heavy body dysphoria and wish they had a functioning version of the reproductive system of their identified gender, some are more socially dysphoric (i.e. feel fundamentally uncomfortable with the world seeing them as something other than their identified gender) and aren't then fussed as much about their existing genit
Some do, some don't - they're individual people not a Borg collective. Some experience heavy body dysphoria and wish they had a functioning version of the reproductive system of their identified gender, some are more socially dysphoric (i.e. feel fundamentally uncomfortable with the world seeing them as something other than their identified gender) and aren't then fussed as much about their existing genit
Again names are arbritarily given while there is a method in determining sex by doctors, you are either male, female or in some rare cases intersex. What happens afterwards is up to chance, some may feel comfortable while others don't. Some people still believe that sex is something you cannot change based on feeling alone while others such as yourself do. Why should one belief be cenosred while the other becomes a de jure law?
Thanks for your second point. I would argue that the first end of the spectrum is definately a delusion and should not be nursed or legitmised using surgery or drugs. As for the second end of the spectrum, I totally get their feel uncomfortabl, but I would argue that many people feel uncomfortable refering to a person who is quite clearly a male as female or vice verse. Why should one person's discomfort be rated above anothers?
Whether it's an offence or not as has been said very much depends on the context. If you were in a position of power, then probably. If you did it repeated and with the purpose to harras that person in a workplace, then probably. That sort of thing is covered in the Equality Act 2010 as being transgender is a protected characteristic like race, disability and sexuality etc.That's just the facts of UK law.
As for whether this is right, well. Science supports transgender people actually (you can look it up on the NHS website, WHO standards, etc etc). And if you saw a man at your work or college or where ever, and you found out he was trans (as in he was born female but now lives his life as a man and looks like a man etc), are you really telling me that you would suddenly start calling him a woman? Come on now. You would be the one that looks weird, not them.
As for whether this is right, well. Science supports transgender people actually (you can look it up on the NHS website, WHO standards, etc etc). And if you saw a man at your work or college or where ever, and you found out he was trans (as in he was born female but now lives his life as a man and looks like a man etc), are you really telling me that you would suddenly start calling him a woman? Come on now. You would be the one that looks weird, not them.
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