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Is it illegal to acknowledge a trans M2F as a man instead of a woman?

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Original post by Waldorf67
It’s really simple.

Sex is biological.
Gender is psychological, which is influenced by biological, social factors.


so what is the definition of each gender then?
No it's fine to call someone by the wrong pronoun and gender. You're technically correct, they aren't changing their sex.
The whole theory behind the concept of being “transgender” seems rife with inconsistency.


For example, it is claimed that gender is a social construct rather than a matter of biological fact, so a person can identify themselves as whatever gender they feel like, independently of what genes they have.

But if gender is a social construct, then you can’t say that the sections of society who choose to construct it as a binary correspondence with sex are wrong. They can construct it however they like, and recognise you as whatever gender results from that too.

It is often also claimed that a transgender person was born that way, and that it is hardcoded into their biology that they would identify with a particular gender - which of course makes no sense at all if gender is a social construct.


It seems that, besides the choice to live life as though one belongs to the opposite sex, people can’t collectively make up their minds as to what being transgender actually means.
Original post by Notoriety
What I believe, from many years as practising as a silk at the Old Bailey, is there there is no specific criminal offence. It is unlikely to come under a generic offence, unless you are particularly obnoxious in how you do it. E.g. potential harassment or intentional harm/harassment/distress from "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" (s4a Public Order Act 1986). As society becomes more SJW, it might offend common decency not to refer to the preferred gender -- but public order is always a matter of society's taste.

Illegal, to me, does not mean unlawful. In the Equality Act context, e.g. in employment, it is unlawful to treat people who have undergone or are currently undergoing gender reassigment less favourably than others. Guidance from various authorities suggests this extends to all people with gender dysphoria even if they are not undergoing physical or hormonal reassignment, but that question is beyond the scope of this paper.

Wait, what's the difference between illegal and unlawful? I've always used those synonymously; am I about to learn something?
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
Wait, what's the difference between illegal and unlawful? I've always used those synonymously; am I about to learn something?

They do mean the same thing, but it's point of emphasis and connotation. Illegal more refers to criminal liability. Unlawful is more civil liability, but it covers the whole range.

So all illegal things are unlawful, but not all unlawful things are illegal.
Original post by tazarooni89
The whole theory behind the concept of being “transgender” seems rife with inconsistency.


For example, it is claimed that gender is a social construct rather than a matter of biological fact, so a person can identify themselves as whatever gender they feel like, independently of what genes they have.

But if gender is a social construct, then you can’t say that the sections of society who choose to construct it as a binary correspondence with sex are wrong. They can construct it however they like, and recognise you as whatever gender results from that too.

It is often also claimed that a transgender person was born that way, and that it is hardcoded into their biology that they would identify with a particular gender - which of course makes no sense at all if gender is a social construct.


It seems that, besides the choice to live life as though one belongs to the opposite sex, people can’t collectively make up their minds as to what being transgender actually means.

Most transgender people just know that they're deeply uncomfortable with the gender society assigned them due to their physical shape and that they're much more comfortable with a different gender. Different people explain that mismatch in different ways, on both biological and societal levels, and their explanations don't always match. Personally, I don't feel the need to know why they are the way they are.

I can't ''prove'' that gender doesn't have a binary correspondence with sex, and I can't force people who think that's the case to treat transgender people the way they want to be treated. But isn't it enough to know that if we treat these people the way they want to be treated, they'll be happier?

Isn't it unreasonable to expect people to somehow prove or explain things about their own heart and soul before you treat them the way they want to be treated, in the most trivial and commonplace of contexts? Btw I'm going to treat you like a soulless meat robot until you can prove that you really are conscious and sentient and not just faking it. /s
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
Most transgender people just know that they're deeply uncomfortable with the gender society assigned them due to their physical shape and that they're much more comfortable with a different gender. Different people explain that mismatch in different ways, on both biological and societal levels, and their explanations don't always match. Personally, I don't feel the need to know why they are the way they are.

I can't ''prove'' that gender doesn't have a binary correspondence with sex, and I can't force people who think that's the case to treat transgender people the way they want to be treated. But isn't it enough to know that if we treat these people the way they want to be treated, they'll be happier?

Isn't it unreasonable to expect people to somehow prove things about their own heart and soul before you treat them the way they want to be treated, in the most trivial and commonplace of contexts? Btw I'm going to treat you as though you were a soulless meat robot until you can prove that you are really conscious and sentient and not just faking it. /s


Treating people the way they want to be treated is a completely separate issue, in my opinion. If a man wants to dress in a skirt and change his name to Katie and asks people to call him that, then by all means. As long as it’s not making life more difficult for other people then I’m sure there’s no problem.

My gripe is more with people who come up with theories as to what gender is and why transgender people are the way they are, and expect us all to accept it as indisputable fact. It needs to be internally consistent and, more importantly, evidenced first. Facts shouldn’t be made up or cherry picked just to suit a particular agenda. It should be the other way round.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Y12_FurtherMaths
There are only two genders. Male and female, of which depends upon your genitalia. I think it’s absurd how people can claim to identify as some crazy inanimate object!


I think that to accord those who don't identify with either gender a corresponding 'they/them' is a nominal courtesy which can easily extend into the formal domain without creating an intolerable linguistic burden or making an outright mockery of the concept of functional nomenclature. Indeed, one could already argue that it rightfully behoves an enquiring entity—official or otherwise—to show that someone's gender and marital status are in fact any of their goddamned business, rather than allowing them to skim such (essentially, private) data from that person's mere identity; so if this brings us one step closer to ending the absurd Mr-Mrs-Miss-Ms anachronism then all the better.
Original post by tazarooni89
My gripe is more with people who come up with theories as to what gender is and why transgender people are the way they are, and expect us all to accept it as indisputable fact. It needs to be internally consistent and, more importantly, evidenced first.


I recall an op-ed by Milo Yiannopoulos (during one of his occasional sympathetic moments) in which he observed that while we've reason enough to recognise gender dysphoria as a bona fide phenomenon, there is also evidence that those who undergo surgical reassignment may no more accept their new physiognomy as 'male' or 'female' than would the public at large, and that therefore a carte blanche policy of simply giving such people what they wish for without first establishing the true, underlying nature of their condition is both medically and socially irresponsible.
Original post by Profesh
I recall an op-ed by Milo Yiannopoulos (during one of his occasional sympathetic moments) in which he observed that while we've reason enough to recognise gender dysphoria as a bona fide phenomenon, there is also evidence that those who undergo surgical reassignment may no more accept their new physiognomy as 'male' or 'female' than would the public at large, and that therefore a carte blanche policy of simply giving such people what they wish for without first establishing the true, underlying nature of their condition is both medically and socially irresponsible.


He makes a good point. I remember reading a statistic that said attempted suicide rates amongst transgender people was extremely high, something like 40%, but crucially, that there was hardly any difference in suicide rates before and after transitioning.

It seems to suggest that the requested treatment may not be particularly effective, for the reason you indicated. Indeed it’s even possible that some may be misattributing their dysphoria to the cosmetics of their sex characteristics, when it could be far more deeply rooted than that.
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
Most transgender people just know that they're deeply uncomfortable with the gender society assigned them due to their physical shape and that they're much more comfortable with a different gender. Different people explain that mismatch in different ways, on both biological and societal levels, and their explanations don't always match. Personally, I don't feel the need to know why they are the way they are.

I can't ''prove'' that gender doesn't have a binary correspondence with sex, and I can't force people who think that's the case to treat transgender people the way they want to be treated. But isn't it enough to know that if we treat these people the way they want to be treated, they'll be happier?

Isn't it unreasonable to expect people to somehow prove or explain things about their own heart and soul before you treat them the way they want to be treated, in the most trivial and commonplace of contexts? Btw I'm going to treat you like a soulless meat robot until you can prove that you really are conscious and sentient and not just faking it. /s

People can live like they want. But in some situations, biological reality matters and feelz don't. In women's sports. Prisons. Just to name 2.
Original post by tazarooni89
He makes a good point. I remember reading a statistic that said attempted suicide rates amongst transgender people was extremely high, something like 40%, but crucially, that there was hardly any difference in suicide rates before and after transitioning.


That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the data. The 40% figure comes from the Williams Institute (not the definitive answer either, some have found higher, some lower), who looked at life time attempts. They didn't differentiate between pre and post transition, and citing a 40% life time rate as evidence transitioning doesn't work is bad science. Studies that have actually looked at rates pre and post transition (e.g. https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/full/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-0015 ) tend to find that suicide rates do decrease post transition.
Original post by Notoriety
What I believe, from many years as practising as a silk at the Old Bailey, is there there is no specific criminal offence. It is unlikely to come under a generic offence, unless you are particularly obnoxious in how you do it. E.g. potential harassment or intentional harm/harassment/distress from "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" (s4a Public Order Act 1986). As society becomes more SJW, it might offend common decency not to refer to the preferred gender -- but public order is always a matter of society's taste.

Illegal, to me, does not mean unlawful. In the Equality Act context, e.g. in employment, it is unlawful to treat people who have undergone or are currently undergoing gender reassigment less favourably than others. Guidance from various authorities suggests this extends to all people with gender dysphoria even if they are not undergoing physical or hormonal reassignment, but that question is beyond the scope of this paper.


They shouldn't be obnoxious or insulting but neither of those are crimes. If you get offended by what someone says, don't listen to them!
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the data. The 40% figure comes from the Williams Institute (not the definitive answer either, some have found higher, some lower), who looked at life time attempts. They didn't differentiate between pre and post transition, and citing a 40% life time rate as evidence transitioning doesn't work is bad science. Studies that have actually looked at rates pre and post transition (e.g. https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/full/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-0015 ) tend to find that suicide rates do decrease post transition.


On the other hand:

”Guardian Weekend asked Birmingham University's Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility (Arif) to assess the findings of more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals. Arif, which conducts reviews of healthcare treatments for the NHS, concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favour of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counselling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time. Arif says the findings of the few studies that have tracked significant numbers of patients over several years were flawed because the researchers lost track of at least half of the participants. The potential complications of hormones and genital surgery, which include deep vein thrombosis and incontinence respectively, have not been thoroughly investigated, either. "There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing," says Dr Chris Hyde, director of Arif. "While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide."

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare


In other words: Sure, you found one study which seems to suggest that re-assignment surgery is effective. But looking at a larger sample of 100 such studies has shown that these studies do not provide conclusive evidence of this. One of the reasons for this is that such studies are poorly designed and skew the results in favour of reassignment. Indeed the study that you cited itself mentions that it did no use a demographically representative sample.
Original post by tazarooni89
On the other hand:



In other words: Sure, you found one study which seems to suggest that re-assignment surgery is effective. But looking at a larger sample of 100 such studies has shown that these studies do not provide conclusive evidence of this. One of the reasons for this is that such studies are poorly designed and skew the results in favour of reassignment. Indeed the study that you cited itself mentions that it did no use a demographically representative sample.



All studies on suicide suffer from the same issues because the topic requires self reporting and it's still a very stigmatised thing to talk about. But, ultimately the research body on gender transition is fairly conclusive in favour of it being beneficial to those with dysphoria: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
Original post by e^iπ
I fully accept Gender Dysphoria as a mental illness as categorised by the DSM-5, and I think it is appalling to discriminate against people who have this mental illness in regards to jobs and other things as it is a passive mental illness that does not affect judgement.

But surely its a pure opinion on whether they are the gender they identify as?
You acknowledge the mental illness but advocate playing along with it.

Regarding the illness as an illness and seeking to cure it rather than play along is not discrimination. Gender is the word that describes the observable biological sex, though it has been redefined by SJWs in recent decades to refer to "identity", which is an illusion and a vain waste of time. Your identity is the outward attributes by which you can be identified by others. A redhead can no more "identify" as blond(e) than a Black can "identify" as Oriental, or than a man can "identify" as a woman, a goose, or an attack helicopter. To tell yourself otherwise is doublethink and folly.
Original post by tazarooni89

But if gender is a social construct, then you can’t say that the sections of society who choose to construct it as a binary correspondence with sex are wrong. They can construct it however they like, and recognise you as whatever gender results from that too.


Your post is generally correct. However, it boils down to the simple point of respect for others identity. Which would you rather have? A society that tells you how to be and expects you to conform, or a society that allows you to be who you want and respect you for it?

At the end of the day, is it really such a big deal whether someone decides to call themselves Simon or Simone? He, or she?

I find that those calling for a gender to be imposed do so because they feel threatened by that non-conformance. And it is always men complaining about men transitioning to women and never the other way. Few women have a problem with transgenderism.
(edited 5 years ago)

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