argue/lobby with a uni that denied your application

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DasVolk
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Greetings everyone.

While I'm not sure if there are certain terminologies/jargons to be used with UK university applications, what I mean by argue/lobby is appealing against a denied admission decision (which seem to be the terms used in US university applications, and I don't quite seem to have come across it on UK uni websites).

I work as an independent education counselor and will have to deal with frustrated students and/or parents about unsuccessful applications. There is recently one case that looks a bit, well, mystified. So I am asking for some opinions from TSR, which I believe will be most insightful.

The student in question submitted an application for accounting and finance with grade A in AL math, grades a in AS chemistry, economics, and accounting, and (presumably) straight A-A* predicted grades. While all other 4 unis offered her conditional offers, the most coveted LSE denied her application, and she is quite agonized by the letter which is simply from templates. She really wants another shot, and one education agent based in the UK said that they could help her with submitting a drastically improved personal statement thus giving her a second chance to apply to LSE. While everyone is not sure about this, she turned to my advice.

I've done some search on the internet and simply couldn't find anything related, so far. Nor do I have heard of anything like this before. The only experience I have with trying to revoke unsuccessful applications is limited to the cases where the students either narrowly missed their offer conditions or have solid grounds (like an important mail become tagged as spam). I simply feel very skeptical towards the claims of the aforementioned agent, and I doubt that in the worst possible case they will do so by turning down all her current offers and apply using UCAS extra, which is simply outrageous.

LSE is extremely selective ( I guess even more so than Oxbridge and Imperial due to the fact that you don't get to be interviewed), and the chances are always slim, and there are a whole Cosmo of factors behind an admission decision. However this student seems quite adamant that with an improved PS she can succeed. So please could anyone share some information or thoughts about this? I'll be so appreciated.

Thanks and best regards.
Last edited by DasVolk; 2 years ago
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Doones
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Greetings everyone.

While I'm not sure if there are certain terminologies/jargons to be used with UK university applications, what I mean by argue/lobby is appealing against a denied admission decision (which seem to be the terms used in US university applications, and I don't quite seem to have come across it on UK uni websites).

I work as an independent education counselor and will have to deal with frustrated students and/or parents about unsuccessful applications. There is recently one case that looks a bit, well, mystified. So I am asking for some opinions from TSR, which I believe will be most insightful.

The student in question submitted an application for accounting and finance with grade A in AL math, grades a in AS chemistry, economics, and accounting, and (presumably) straight A-A* predicted grades. While all other 4 unis offered her conditional offers, the most coveted LSE denied her application, and she is quite agonized by the letter which is simply from templates. She really wants another shot, and one education agent based in the UK said that they could help her with submitting a drastically improved personal statement thus giving her a second chance to apply to LSE. While everyone is not sure about this, she turned to my advice.

I've done some search on the internet and simply couldn't find anything related, so far. Nor do I have heard of anything like this before. The only experience I have with trying to revoke unsuccessful applications is limited to the cases where the students either narrowly missed their offer conditions or have solid grounds (like an important mail become tagged as spam). I simply feel very skeptical towards the claims of the aforementioned agent, and I doubt that in the worst possible case they will do so by turning down all her current offers and apply using UCAS extra, which is simply outrageous.

LSE is extremely selective ( I guess even more so than Oxbridge and Imperial due to fact that you don't get to be interviewed), and the chances are always slim, and there are a whole Cosmo of factors behind an admission decision. However this student seems quite adamant that with an improved PS she can succeed. So please could anyone share some information or thoughts about this? I'll be so appreciated.

Thanks and best regards.
They can't reapply via Extra. And LSE won't be in Clearing so the only option is to reapply next year.
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DasVolk
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
They can't reapply via Extra. And LSE won't be in Clearing so the only option is to reapply next year.
Thanks a lot, good to know that extra couldn't be spammed like this. So is it actually a scam?
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Doones
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Thanks a lot, good to know that extra couldn't be spammed like this. So is it actually a scam?
Ignorance, or someone trying to extract additional consulting fees in the full knowledge the attempts will fail... I leave that judgment to you.

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Doones
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Oh and just to add LSE doesn't offer places via Adjustment either, so that's also not a potential option.

So that leaves reapplying next year (with no guarantees) or going via postgrad.

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DasVolk
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
Ignorance, or someone trying to extract additional consulting fees in the full knowledge the attempts will fail... I leave that judgment to you.

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Well I'm not sure about the neutrality of my wording but from my post I think I sound pretty certain that it is a scam
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DasVolk
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
Oh and just to add LSE doesn't offer places via Adjustment either, so that's also not a potential option.

So that leaves reapplying next year (with no guarantees) or going via postgrad.

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It's as if Extra, Adjustment, and Clearing are automatically excluding Oxbridge, Imperial, LSE, and basically UCL
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Doones
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(Original post by DasVolk)
It's as if Extra, Adjustment, and Clearing are automatically excluding Oxbridge, Imperial, LSE, and basically UCL
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returnmigrant
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Applicants have no right of appeal. The only exception is where clearly the University did not have full information (ie. missing qualifications) or a mistake in process was made (ie.rejecting an application in error). Where either of these situations happen, all Unis will be reasonable and try to fix things quickly if they can, or reach a sensible compromise (ie. reapply next year and we guarantee an offer/interview etc).

The applicant needs to fund out why she was rejected. For LSE its probably simply competition - other applicants had high grades and/or a better statement and therefore 'scored' higher. Just meeting the grades will not be enough for the really competitive UK Universities, and your applicant needs to get her head round that fact. She was not 'entitled' to a place just by having the right predicted grades.

Universities will automatically reject such an application in Extra - ie. they have spaces but they want higher scoring applicants to fill them.

Sometimes teens find it very hard to accept 'No' - especially if the come from from the type of background where that doesnt happen very often. And some parents also find it hard to accept that unlike most other situations in the past that they have managed to 'fix it' for their child, when they are up against a Uni that they can't 'influence' there is nothing they can do.

The best advice to any applicant in this position - rejected from top choice Uni - is to either settle for one of her other offers, or withdraw her entire application and reapply next year. And in the meantime, go full out for the best possible grades she can get, and rewrite her PS to UK standards - USA applications require more of a 'personal portrait', and UK Unis will want to see evidence of academic engagement with key themes relevant to the subject applied for - ie. more about an understanding of the UK finance industry and less about cheer-leading. This is a facetious example but you get the idea.

Hope this helps.
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DasVolk
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(Original post by returnmigrant)
Applicants have no right of appeal. The only exception is where clearly the University did not have full information (ie. missing qualifications) or a mistake in process was made (ie.rejecting an application in error). Where either of these situations happen, all Unis will be reasonable and try to fix things quickly if they can, or reach a sensible compromise (ie. reapply next year and we guarantee an offer/interview etc).

The applicant needs to fund out why she was rejected. For LSE its probably simply competition - other applicants had high grades and/or a better statement and therefore 'scored' higher. Just meeting the grades will not be enough for the really competitive UK Universities, and your applicant needs to get her head round that fact. She was not 'entitled' to a place just by having the right predicted grades.

Universities will automatically reject such an application in Extra - ie. they have spaces but they want higher scoring applicants to fill them.

Sometimes teens find it very hard to accept 'No' - especially if the come from from the type of background where that doesnt happen very often. And some parents also find it hard to accept that unlike most other situations in the past that they have managed to 'fix it' for their child, when they are up against a Uni that they can't 'influence' there is nothing they can do.

The best advice to any applicant in this position - rejected from top choice Uni - is to either settle for one of her other offers, or withdraw her entire application and reapply next year. And in the meantime, go full out for the best possible grades she can get, and rewrite her PS to UK standards - USA applications require more of a 'personal portrait', and UK Unis will want to see evidence of academic engagement with key themes relevant to the subject applied for - ie. more about an understanding of the UK finance industry and less about cheer-leading. This is a facetious example but you get the idea.

Hope this helps.
Thank you so much for your detailed reply! I've just viewed their letters and it is indeed the case that LSE has given a final decision beyond appeal. Although it appeared that this student did not supply a statement of her best satisfaction due to external factors (which should hopefully be justifiable by her referee). Right now we are looking into writing a formal mail detailing this situation and attach a (superiorly)reworked statement. What do you think of this approach though?
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returnmigrant
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Right now we are looking into writing a formal mail detailing this situation and attach a (superiorly)reworked statement. What do you think of this approach though?
Pointless (honestly).

They have made their decision and they wont be interested in tenuous 'external factors' at this stage.
Their attitude (rightly) will be that if she didnt feel her PS was 'right' at that point she should have waited until it was.

She can reapply next year with an important lesson learnt. No one owes you a place at Uni. And you are not that 'special'.
Its one that many teens - and their parents - do have to learn the hard way.
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ageshallnot
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Thank you so much for your detailed reply! I've just viewed their letters and it is indeed the case that LSE has given a final decision beyond appeal. Although it appeared that this student did not supply a statement of her best satisfaction due to external factors (which should hopefully be justifiable by her referee). Right now we are looking into writing a formal mail detailing this situation and attach a (superiorly)reworked statement. What do you think of this approach though?
It was a little foolish for her to apply with a less than optimum personal statement. LSE are known to place huge emphasis on the PS:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Un...onal-Statement
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DasVolk
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(Original post by returnmigrant)
Pointless (honestly).

They have made their decision and they wont be interested in tenuous 'external factors' at this stage.
Their attitude (rightly) will be that if she didnt feel her PS was 'right' at that point she should have waited until it was.

She can reapply next year with an important lesson learnt. No one owes you a place at Uni. And you are not that 'special'.
Its one that many teens - and their parents - do have to learn the hard way.
Indeed. And you made a great observation on the difference between UK and US university application material. I think it's exactly why the UK writing is called a statement and the US one is called an essay.
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DasVolk
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(Original post by ageshallnot)
It was a little foolish for her to apply with a less than optimum personal statement. LSE are known to place huge emphasis on the PS:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Un...onal-Statement
Which is also a reason why I personally take that external factor explanation. Her school has been pointless in driving students (especially ones with fine grades, and it appears plainly snobbish) to submit as soon as possible regardless of the students' own plans.
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LeapingLucy
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Thank you so much for your detailed reply! I've just viewed their letters and it is indeed the case that LSE has given a final decision beyond appeal. Although it appeared that this student did not supply a statement of her best satisfaction due to external factors (which should hopefully be justifiable by her referee). Right now we are looking into writing a formal mail detailing this situation and attach a (superiorly)reworked statement. What do you think of this approach though?
Well it’ll be pretty obvious that she’s hired an educational consultant to write her a better personal statement and that it’s not her own work whatsoever.

She’ll get nowhere and may end up reducing her chances next year should she reapply.
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LeapingLucy
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Accounting and Finance at LSE has a 17% offer rate. That’s incredibly low compared to most university courses in the UK. No one can be sure of gaining a place, no matter how good their grades and PS.

I doubt it was anything she did wrong - it was just that there were too many other applicants with stronger profiles.
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DasVolk
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(Original post by LeapingLucy)
Accounting and Finance at LSE has a 17% offer rate. That’s incredibly low compared to most university courses in the UK. No one can be sure of gaining a place, no matter how good their grades and PS.

I doubt it was anything she did wrong - it was just that there were too many other applicants with stronger profiles.
Well I went through her application and it was fine, although admittedly the statement was far from, well, reasonable. It was not her own work to start with anyway, which is also a reason behind this push for a 2nd shot. As a matter of fact, I will be her statement instructor if she ever decides to try, and just for the record I never work by writing for students. Some of her school mates received my instructions and help and they got fine results (so far), which is another reason for this push.

Thank you so much for your attention from that post though!
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swanseajack1
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(Original post by DasVolk)
Well I went through her application and it was fine, although admittedly the statement was far from, well, reasonable. It was not her own work to start with anyway, which is also a reason behind this push for a 2nd shot. As a matter of fact, I will be her statement instructor if she ever decides to try, and just for the record I never work by writing for students. Some of her school mates received my instructions and help and they got fine results (so far), which is another reason for this push.

Thank you so much for your attention from that post though!
As has already been said you will be wasting your, the girl and the universities time with your proposed course of action. You have already been told this by someone with considerable knowledge who works in university admissions. Time to accept her application wasnt up to the standards of others and move on. Many applying to the likes of LSE will offer grades in excess of the minimum entry requirements. As already stated 5 out of 6 get rejected there so the girl isnt alone. The best thing you can do is be honest with the girl rather than persueing a totally pointless route.
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DasVolk
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(Original post by swanseajack1)
As has already been said you will be wasting your, the girl and the universities time with your proposed course of action. You have already been told this by someone with considerable knowledge who works in university admissions. Time to accept her application wasnt up to the standards of others and move on. Many applying to the likes of LSE will offer grades in excess of the minimum entry requirements. As already stated 5 out of 6 get rejected there so the girl isnt alone. The best thing you can do is be honest with the girl rather than persueing a totally pointless route.
Yes indeed, although this really isn't my call whether to go for it or not But learning the facts here is still very helpful in persuading her to move on, hopefully.
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