Anyone else concerned about an independent England?

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SaucissonSecCy
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I think we may well, given the times we're living in, be soon looking at an independent Scotland and a United Ireland. Although I'm pretty supportive of this, and think we need to reconceive England(we still seem unable to accept our decline in power, stuck with the post empire delusion, in foreign policy and otherwise) and although there are progressive possibilities and people, there is a strain of reactionary, little Englander Tory that I loathe. Just reading the comments on English politics online is hugely depressing at times. Every country has its manifestations of this I guess, but I've never come across anything quite so full of hatred, paranoia, regressiveness, irrationality and anti-intellectualism. Is there going to be enough to counter them if England ends up independent? Because if these reactionary hate filled rightist turds take over via demographics in an independent England it would considerably add to its hellishness. I find it extremely strange to hear people in humble financial circumstances spitting with rage about the left, and parroting every gutter tabloid smear like a morons gospel. Strange, inhuman, sinister and depressing. Anyone else think the mean spirited little England Tory is a phenomenon we might be underestimating? What kind of nation would an independent England be?
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Dr J
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
I think we may well, given the times we're living in, be soon looking at an independent Scotland and a United Ireland. Although I'm pretty supportive of this, and think we need to reconceive England(we still seem unable to accept our decline in power, stuck with the post empire delusion, in foreign policy and otherwise) and although there are progressive possibilities and people, there is a strain of reactionary, little Englander Tory that I loathe. Just reading the comments on English politics online is hugely depressing at times. Every country has its manifestations of this I guess, but I've never come across anything quite so full of hatred, paranoia, regressiveness, irrationality and anti-intellectualism. Is there going to be enough to counter them if England ends up independent? Because if these reactionary hate filled rightist turds take over via demographics in an independent England it would considerably add to its hellishness. I find it extremely strange to hear people in humble financial circumstances spitting with rage about the left, and parroting every gutter tabloid smear like a morons gospel. Strange, inhuman, sinister and depressing. Anyone else think the mean spirited little England Tory is a phenomenon we might be underestimating? What kind of nation would an independent England be?
Bigger country tends to have higher aggregate demand in their domestic economy and more job opportunities, by reducing its size, it may further decrease the international conpeitiveness pf the UK.There are lots of economic factors in this debate too.

Please use paragraphs for your long post, ty.
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by JackFu)
Bigger country tends to have higher aggregate demand in their domestic economy and more job opportunities, by reducing its size, it may further decrease the international conpeitiveness pf the UK.There are lots of economic factors in this debate too.

Please use paragraphs for your long post, ty.
I don't see how size will have a significant impact international competitiveness at this level. A cursory glance at rankings put together by the World Economic Forum puts the UK 8th, at a similar level with other Northern European countries that have smaller populations.

If anything it looks like Scotland's economy has underperformed relative to the rest of the UK over the past few years so independence would in theory mark an 'improvement' in the performance of the UK/England & Wales. But in general, I don't think an independent England would inherently be better or worse off economically. That said, I do agree with the sentiment in the OP about a nasty inward-looking culture developing that could very well harm the economy in less direct ways over the course of a decade.

And this is my main concern, the UK currently projects more soft power than it really deserves to. Our media, sport and academia are pretty phenomenal and an independent England accompanied with said inwardness will probably be a detriment to these sectors. These are things that are often derided here but praised internationally.
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Dr.Dreamer
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I wouldn’t worry much about England changing as it becomes independent. Because England is already adapted at being independent already. Firstly England makes its own cars and it is huge, as it clearly shows independent economy, which a lot of countries nowadays don’t have.
Secondly England is too smart and powerful to break down, even after predicted economy crash after Brexit it will adapt and will come back up.
Finally England is awesome.
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begbie68
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Part of me (the bit that's bored by these arguments and militant pro-independence propagators) would like to see a completely independent Scotland, Wales & NI.
I believe England would prosper in the long term. Maybe the others would too (I doubt it).

However, looking at the way Brexit has gone / is going, can you imagine how long it'd take for these 3 countries to find & fund their own legal, currency and trade systems? Let alone border controls, immigration, education policies, taxation systems and the rest of it.
How about all the Nationals of those countries living 'abroad' in England? & the English 'abroad' in one of those 3 places?

Nah. Too much aggro. Carry on England carrying these others. We all gain from the status quo.
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Dr J
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
I don't see how size will have a significant impact international competitiveness at this level. A cursory glance at rankings put together by the World Economic Forum puts the UK 8th, at a similar level with other Northern European countries that have smaller populations.

If anything it looks like Scotland's economy has underperformed relative to the rest of the UK over the past few years so independence would in theory mark an 'improvement' in the performance of the UK/England & Wales. But in general, I don't think an independent England would inherently be better or worse off economically. That said, I do agree with the sentiment in the OP about a nasty inward-looking culture developing that could very well harm the economy in less direct ways over the course of a decade.

And this is my main concern, the UK currently projects more soft power than it really deserves to. Our media, sport and academia are pretty phenomenal and an independent England accompanied with said inwardness will probably be a detriment to these sectors. These are things that are often derided here but praised internationally.
The remark about size was npt my intention to link it with competitiveness. The remark was about more job opportunities more demand and growth. In theory, if Scotland is away from the UK: there could be less demand this GDP may fall. In addition, supply side economics also indicate a loss of factors of production which is unbeneficial for long term growth i.e. a loss of recourses raw materials and etc.

That being said, I think some people think that Scotland is a burden to the UK and they are a net cost to England e.g. free education for unis. But they also produce goods and services for the english households and possibly at a cheaper price than produced in the UK due to lower unit labour costs.
If Scotland does leave, they may not settle a trade deal with the UK and they could set tariffs on english exports, that would just be damagong trade and growth.

This is just my opinion and is subjective.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by begbie68)
Part of me (the bit that's bored by these arguments and militant pro-independence propagators) would like to see a completely independent Scotland, Wales & NI.
I believe England would prosper in the long term. Maybe the others would too (I doubt it).

However, looking at the way Brexit has gone / is going, can you imagine how long it'd take for these 3 countries to find & fund their own legal, currency and trade systems? Let alone border controls, immigration, education policies, taxation systems and the rest of it.
How about all the Nationals of those countries living 'abroad' in England? & the English 'abroad' in one of those 3 places?

Nah. Too much aggro. Carry on England carrying these others. We all gain from the status quo.
They are not happy to be seen as carried by England. Have to say I completely disagree with the arguments about economic performance. They need governments close to home and not to suffer the unfair funding re London. I think its a myth to say they leech off us or underperform. Actually London is subsidised and gets disproportionate funding But nevertheless its unfair for them to be decried for taking our wealth or dragging us down and then keep them shackled. They are nations with a right to self determination, sure it'd take time but its their right imo. Even the North is pissed off listening to this arrogance.
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Andrew97
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Sigh. How comes people who want an independent Wales or Scotland are supported (to an extent) but those who praise England are little Englanders? It’s just stupid.
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SaucissonSecCy
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Everyone has answered in economic terms, although that's part of it I meant the full picture I can see an ultra Tory economy with little compassion for those left behind, London receiving way more investment and then looking down on the bums elsewhere in England and say they subsidise them when in fact its the opposite. Even the people who didn't like small minded cultural conservatism would often be pretty individualist and Thatcherite in their thinking, their would be quite a cynical opportunist mentality, and it would be a divided country. The replies so far haven't filled me with hope... Everything about GDP and the usual wisdom, wrong ib my view, about who is scrounging or underperforming. A lot of conservatives on one hand, and some Liberal economic rightists on the other. Don't think there would be much interest in common humanity or a social vision.
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SaucissonSecCy
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One guy says England US awesome but to me it's a very corrupted, exploited country with what can seem a pig headed dislike of different possibilities. There's a huge amount of suspicion about progressives. England is run for such a minority, and extremely corrupt in economic and foreign policy terms, with the US relationship. That said, I think the break up of the UK, plus a softish Brexit could end up being progressive if they would ditch that American lapdog, post imperial delusion. I'm not sure whether being England not Britain would achieve this. One possibility is we end up like the Swiss, innovative, rich, progressive and European but outside the EU. Another is that we become much more little England, Americas lapdog, and can't shed the imperialist delusion.
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SaucissonSecCy
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Andrew97
No, I didn't say that if you want it you are that, there are varying reasons, and I am quite supportive or breaking up the UK now. But I was talking about a type that exists within England and what their influence would be, electorally and culturally, in an independent England.
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jameswhughes
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People living in the new independent Wales and Scotland should be far more worried if this were to happen. :lol:
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by jameswhughes)
People living in the new independent Wales and Scotland should be far more worried if this were to happen. :lol:
Yes, the usual wisdom. In fact London rips off the rest of the UK. These responses haven't filled me with optimism, not sure there will be much thoughtful debate going on if we were independent. Ireland and Scotland would be more progressive.

And I'm seeing the usual evidence, that there would be unwarranted smugness and delusion.
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jameswhughes
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Yes, the usual wisdom. In fact London rips off the rest of the UK. These responses haven't filled me with optimism, not sure there will be much thoughtful debate going on if we were independent. Ireland and Scotland would be more progressive.

And I'm seeing the usual evidence, that there would be unwarranted smugness and delusion.
Can you define rips off? The UK's main output is financial services, London is the most important part of the country.

What do you mean by progressive?
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ajj2000
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Yes, the usual wisdom. In fact London rips off the rest of the UK.
evidence? Does the tax take from London not exceed public spending there? I guess you could argue that a disproportionate number of talented young people from elsewhere move to London at a cost of local economies?
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BasicMistake
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For clarification, when I talked about Scottish independence 'improving' the UK economy I was only really commenting about a quirk of statistics; average growth would be 'higher' if you strip away Scotland's contribution. But this is only a matter of national accounting, not anything about real impacts on livelihoods or the economy.

Also while it is true that Scotland's productivity and growth has recently lagged behind the rest of the UK, labour productivity is generally higher in Scotland than say the Midlands and certain Northern areas. Edinburgh and Glasgow outperform the Northern Powerhouses by some margin.
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begbie68
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Everyone has answered in economic terms, although that's part of it I meant the full picture I can see an ultra Tory economy with little compassion for those left behind, London receiving way more investment and then looking down on the bums elsewhere in England and say they subsidise them when in fact its the opposite. Even the people who didn't like small minded cultural conservatism would often be pretty individualist and Thatcherite in their thinking, their would be quite a cynical opportunist mentality, and it would be a divided country. The replies so far haven't filled me with hope... Everything about GDP and the usual wisdom, wrong ib my view, about who is scrounging or underperforming. A lot of conservatives on one hand, and some Liberal economic rightists on the other. Don't think there would be much interest in common humanity or a social vision.
Isn't it true that the Nazis had an interest in their 'common humanity or a social vision'? So did Mao, Genghis Khan, & Marx. & what about the Vikings, Romans and those struggling for control/power in the Middle East, & others in African States?

I think you need to be careful when talking about social vision!
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Chicken.M.
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Personally happy about it. The Country is already in a bad state, it will get worse after Brexit.

But the good part is that we're under a Tory government, so they will be blamed for everything (and rightly so). Labour will 100% win the next election and I'm looking forward to the positive vision Jeremy Corbyn and his team have for the country. It will be the first time in my lifetime seeing people with good morales in power.


My Sister is waiting until brexit so she can buy her first house, since there'll be a housing crash at that point.
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