Econ and Maths at LSE without Further Maths - HELP

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Joshua Hudson
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Hi,

I am currently in year 12, taking physics, mathematics, economics, and an EPQ. With the idea of this these subjects being that top grades in maths and physics would show a suitable ability of mathematical comprehension. Whilst economics would show an ability is written work - obviously needed at degree level.

However, I am aware that not taking FM's is a disadvantage. Really I just wanna know whether people got into LSE for econ and maths at degree with similar subjects (not taking FM). I do believe physics and economics are considered academic/facilitating subjects.

Obviously, FM might be an option as an As next year. Although considering how taxing physics and mathematics will be at A2, I dunno.

I really think I can achieve top grades in the subjects I have taken. Already doing hours a night of revision - in specific to revision for my upcoming mocks, commencing the 14th January.

Any help is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
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ageshallnot
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(Original post by Joshua Hudson)
Hi,

I am currently in year 12, taking physics, mathematics, economics, and an EPQ. With the idea of this these subjects being that top grades in maths and physics would show a suitable ability of mathematical comprehension. Whilst economics would show an ability is written work - obviously needed at degree level.

However, I am aware that not taking FM's is a disadvantage. Really I just wanna know whether people got into LSE for econ and maths at degree with similar subjects (not taking FM). I do believe physics and economics are considered academic/facilitating subjects.

Obviously, FM might be an option as an As next year. Although considering how taxing physics and mathematics will be at A2, I dunno.

I really think I can achieve top grades in the subjects I have taken. Already doing hours a night of revision - in specific to revision for my upcoming mocks, commencing the 14th January.

Any help is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
Well, it doesn't look good without any FM:

"Further Mathematics is highly recommended. Students not taking Further Mathematics to A level will normally be required to achieve grade A in Further Mathematics AS level in addition to A* (Mathematics) at A level."
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Joshua Hudson
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(Original post by ageshallnot)
Well, it doesn't look good without any FM:

"Further Mathematics is highly recommended. Students not taking Further Mathematics to A level will normally be required to achieve grade A in Further Mathematics AS level in addition to A* (Mathematics) at A level."
Surely an A* in Maths and an A/A* in Physics (which is said to be 40% mathematics) shows an ability in mathematics. FM is not included in LSE A*AA offer so FM is an extra.
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Infinite Series
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(Original post by Joshua Hudson)
Surely an A* in Maths and an A/A* in Physics (which is said to be 40% mathematics) shows an ability in mathematics. FM is not included in LSE A*AA offer so FM is an extra.
Anything economics related at LSE is as competitive as getting into Oxbridge. LSE have to be strict as there are too many applicants since the university is the breeding ground for Investment Bankers.

Just because you are good at A-Level Maths doesn't mean you'll do great in Further Math; I know people who got A*s in Maths but B/C for Further Maths. I believe university maths is more conceptual, so having a FM foundation would ensure you're more ready for this.
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ageshallnot
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(Original post by Joshua Hudson)
Surely an A* in Maths and an A/A* in Physics (which is said to be 40% mathematics) shows an ability in mathematics. FM is not included in LSE A*AA offer so FM is an extra.
Well, that's what LSE say on http://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Un...-and-Economics
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artful_lounger
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LeapingLucy might have some insight

My understanding is the majority of successful applicants for just single honours economics at LSE have FM (like, 80% or so), so for the joint honours with maths I think you would be quite a weak applicant realistically...
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LeapingLucy
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I don't have data for the Economics and Mathematics course, just the Economics course. For the Economics course, it's extremely difficult to get into LSE without Further Maths A-level or AS-level.

Given that the Economics and Mathematics course is even more mathematical, I would guess that it's even harder to get in without FM at A/AS-level.

From the 2017 data for BSc Economics:

Looking at the 2017 statistics:
- there were 605 applicants with FM A-level, of which 262, or 43%, got an offer
- there were 165 applicants with FM AS-level, of which 65, or 38%, got an offer
- there were 477 applicants who didn't have FM A-level, of which just 24, or 5%, got an offer

LSE ask you to state in your reference/PS whether or not your school offered FM; if they don't then LSE won't count it against you. I would hazard a guess that the 5% of applicants without FM who get offers fall into this category.

Overall in 2017, people who didn't have FM A-level or AS-level made up 38% of applicants, but only 7% of offers.

I got this info from a freedom of information request at: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque..._further_maths

You could try filing a new FOI specifically to get the stats for Economics & Mathematics.


TL;DR - I think your best strategy at this point is to take AS-level Further Maths next year. Without it, I think your chances of Econ & Maths at LSE are extremely slim, given that your school offer FM but you chose not to take it.
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LeapingLucy
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Also, for what it's worth, the LSE Economics course is heavily mathematical. I have friends doing it who did Further Maths A-level (and got A* - in addition to straight A*s in Maths, Physics and Economics) and still really struggle with the mathematical content.

An A* at maths A-level doesn't really demonstrate sufficient mathematical ability by itself.

In the unlikely event you got an offer without doing any FM, I think it's highly likely you would seriously struggle with the course.
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artful_lounger
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(Original post by LeapingLucy)
I don't have data for the Economics and Mathematics course, just the Economics course. For the Economics course, it's extremely difficult to get into LSE without Further Maths A-level or AS-level.

Given that the Economics and Mathematics course is even more mathematical, I would guess that it's even harder to get in without FM at A/AS-level.

From the 2017 data for BSc Economics:

Looking at the 2017 statistics:
- there were 605 applicants with FM A-level, of which 262, or 43%, got an offer
- there were 165 applicants with FM AS-level, of which 65, or 38%, got an offer
- there were 477 applicants who didn't have FM A-level, of which just 24, or 5%, got an offer

LSE ask you to state in your reference/PS whether or not your school offered FM; if they don't then LSE won't count it against you. I would hazard a guess that the 5% of applicants without FM who get offers fall into this category.

Overall in 2017, people who didn't have FM A-level or AS-level made up 38% of applicants, but only 7% of offers.

I got this info from a freedom of information request at: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque..._further_maths

You could try filing a new FOI specifically to get the stats for Economics & Mathematics.


TL;DR - I think your best strategy at this point is to take AS-level Further Maths next year. Without it, I think your chances of Econ & Maths at LSE are extremely slim, given that your school offer FM but you chose not to take it.
PRSOM

(Original post by Joshua Hudson)
OP
Also just on a more general note, for any course including mathematics as a subject unto itself (i.e. not just a supporting subject as in engineering, physics etc), not taking FM could be an issue just in terms of making sure you are adequately prepared for and able to cope with the course. University level mathematics is very different from A-level Maths; what is normally termed "pure maths" in A-level is actually just considered mathematical methods in university. You don't even begin to approach the type of maths done in university level pure maths until FM (when you'll cover some elements of proof and perhaps start thinking a little more abstractly about some other topics you cover). Additionally, you'll be going from having studied maths as 1/3 of your course to 1/2 or more, which combined with the significant change of pace/style in university level maths, can be a lot to take in.

Thus taking FM is useful not merely in terms of admissions, but in terms of actually preparing to do as well as you can in the degree programme itself. Besides the above, you'll also have covered several topics you'll be re-covering in first year otherwise, such as complex numbers and matrices, which is helpful in allowing you more time to focus on understanding the abstract stuff. Take a look at something like Spivak's Calculus for example, to get an idea of what university level maths is actually like; that should give you a minimal idea of the kind of rigour you will be working towards in uni level maths. If that kind of maths, which can sometimes feel a bit like collecting tedious minutiae (until you suddenly "click" and several results come together to give you a deeper understanding, which is great when it happens) rather than solving problems and getting neat solutions to them, doesn't appeal as much then a single honours economics course might be more to your tastes. If that kind of maths does appeal, then taking FM to the greatest capacity to possible would then just be a sensible pursuit of those interests anyway.
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Joshua Hudson
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Not really sure what I'm gonna do tbh. I don't even know if A-levels do As anymore, so doing As FM might be impossible. Obviously can't start FM now: um...

The A*AA offer LSE give though does not include further maths, so these applicants with FM at As and A-level must have it as a 4 subject - FM is additional and not included in the offer.
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LeapingLucy
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(Original post by Joshua Hudson)
Not really sure what I'm gonna do tbh. I don't even know if A-levels do As anymore, so doing As FM might be impossible. Obviously can't start FM now: um...

The A*AA offer LSE give though does not include further maths, so these applicants with FM at As and A-level must have it as a 4 subject - FM is additional and not included in the offer.
No - FM can be one of 3 subjects in the offer for Economics and Mathematics. This is from the LSE web page for this course:

Applications from those with Mathematics, Further Mathematics and one other subject will be considered.
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LeapingLucy
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Basically, for Econ and Maths at LSE, Further Maths is compulsory if your school offer it.

The only reason they don’t state it as compulsory is so as not to unfairly deter applicants from schools where it’s not an option.

If you read the webpage for this course, it says:

We are looking for excellent mathematicians and it is a requirement that A level Mathematics (or equivalent) is taken and the maximum grade achieved. Where it is offered by your school or college, AS or A level Further Mathematics is expected to be taken.


At this point, I think you need to decide whether the course, or whether LSE, is more important to you.

If it’s the course, then your subjects will get you into almost any Econ/maths course, just not LSE or Cambridge.

If it’s LSE, then you would have a normal chance of admission to a course like Management, or Government and Economics or Economics and Economic History.
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Joshua Hudson
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(Original post by LeapingLucy)
Basically, for Econ and Maths at LSE, Further Maths is compulsory if your school offer it.

The only reason they don’t state it as compulsory is so as not to unfairly deter applicants from schools where it’s not an option.

If you read the webpage for this course, it says:

We are looking for excellent mathematicians and it is a requirement that A level Mathematics (or equivalent) is taken and the maximum grade achieved. Where it is offered by your school or college, AS or A level Further Mathematics is expected to be taken.


At this point, I think you need to decide whether the course, or whether LSE, is more important to you.


If it’s the course, then your subjects will get you into almost any Econ/maths course, just not LSE or Cambridge.

If it’s LSE, then you would have a normal chance of admission to a course like Management, or Government and Economics or Economics and Economic History.
Thank you.
What shall I do? I think I would prefer FM to Economics at A-level. I've done no economic revision for my upcoming mocks but spent like 8 hours a day doing maths and physics (because I studying them). Should I try which or do I try and pick up FM next year at As?
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Joshua Hudson
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Thank you, everyone!
What shall I do? I think I would prefer FM to Economics at A-level. I've done no economic revision for my upcoming mocks but spent like 8 hours a day doing maths and physics (because I studying them). In my last maths step I beat most of the FM students (47/50 in binomial expansion with a weekend of revision - easy topic, I know!). Should I try switch or do I try and pick up FM next year at As?
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Joshua Hudson
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Started using the FM textbook (I have access). Gonna work through it and after mocks gonna ask to switch economics for FM. If I can make up some ground in the textbook they make let me. Or alternatively sit it myself, I dunno
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